Tuition Crisis- Mishpacha Magazine feature article

amother

↑ Oldlace ↓

Mon, Sep 30 2024, 8:28 am

amother Maroon wrote:

You're right. I would add seminary and uniforms to the list after weddings. That's the most I spend on clothes ever and it bothers me every year. You can find very plain flats for cheap, wouldn't put that down as a necessary expense.

Not up to seminary yet, but it scares me. Camp is not mandatory in my community, though. Which communities make it mandatory? I know chassidish yeshivas go upstate, but isn't that similar to what they'd be paying for daycamp?

Also simchos.
Its beautiful to say that everyone should make small simchos.
But if a school mandates you use a specific hall (that has a minimum) or mandates you invite all the classmates and all the Rebbeim, then don't complain about big simchos.

OddoneOut1

Mon, Sep 30 2024, 9:28 am

I read majority of the posts but need to comment on all the posters discussing the high standards of living- I agree that it is a huge issue in our communities but bringing that up constantly actually minimizes the sheer enormity of tuition irregardless of standard of living.
6 kids in the school system is an estimated 55-90k in tuition for most schools. A couple making 150k combined is considered a VERY nice salary in the secular world, but would be a 1/3 or more of that lovely family’s tuition bil which is so clearly more than what they could afford.
True, if people would cut down on their lifestyle they may be able to afford MORE of their tuition, but this amount is still untenable.
So yes, the school systems expectation is that parents of the school need to be the top earners in the US just to pay tuition…doesn’t take away the fact of course that that is simply the cost of education…having many Frum children is a HUGE financial “situation” (I can’t bring myself to call it burden)

amother

↑ Bottlebrush

Mon, Sep 30 2024, 9:53 am

amother OP wrote:

There is one last basic question you left out:

4) Is it reasonable for the bottom 70% of our community to generally (not every single individual family) live like the top 30% of the secular population in so many aspects and in celebrating life cycle events, yet still expect to have their children’s private school educational costs to be a right and entitlement that “the community” needs to figure out for them rather than a personal responsibility?

It sure wasn’t that way in Europe when the Kehilla had a cheder.

The Rav of our middle class working class shul told us that when all is said and done, the average working family- that needs to come on to some Tzedaka help to make a wedding- spends between $70,000 and $90,000 one one child’s wedding FOR ONE SIDE.

The “babysitters and bus drivers” in the non Jewish world wouldn’t dream of spending the above. The bottom 30% of the secular world simply don’t live in $750k- 1.25k large homes. They don’t wear $50-$80 school shoes, $150 outfits, drive 2 newer model cars, or send the kids to expensive sleepaway camp. They don’t turn up their noses at shopping for clothes in Walmart and other discounters. They don’t even buy $200-300 worth of cuts of meat- even for a holiday. Or get the above from tzedaka and communal organizations- it boils down to the same thing; community resources.

There is this huge dichotomy of the average family living like the above average income family and then finding tuition to be out of their budget. Until we address this as a community the answer to your question is that there is no place for “Jewish teachers and babysitters and nurses and bus drivers” because we as a community are not allowing for that space.

The issue is that you are using numbers without full pictures.
So your argument is unfair
In the secular world they don’t marry off their children at the age we do.
Therefore they don’t need to pay for setting them up ( and vast majority to pay for most of college which is the same amount)
( the actual wedding is between 17- 25 average in Lakewood)
Secular families
Have much less kids so their food bill is lower
And non kosher meat is a Quarter of the price
You can get a ham for 4.99 a pound
They don’t need to walk to a Shul on Shabbos so can live where ever they want
Don’t have to dress tznius

And almost everyone I know who is struggling are not spending the amounts of you posted.
All my relatives who struggle live in smaller homes.
But shoes at sales.
Have their kids work one half to help pay for sleepaway
Buys kids clothing in h and M , target, and Walmart

You seem tone deaf to the realities of so many who struggle
I bless you that you should never understand

amother

↑ Sapphire ↓

Mon, Sep 30 2024, 11:05 am

amother Pistachio wrote:

By using expensive community resources like large shul buildings, elaborate mikvahs, or costly services like Hatzalah without paying a proportionate amount to your use, you effectively DO expect it.

So, first of all, that's a ridiculous assumption. If somebody chooses to build something for the community and it's already there and I pay or make use of it for free, then that's completely different than assuming someone else should pay for me if it wouldn't be there. If someone build something for the community then kol hakavod to them. That is completely different than expecting other people to do it for you. Plus, me personally, when I use community services, I give a donation after.

We didn't have a shul nearby in our neighborhood and so we all got together and gave some money and put together our own shul. No, we didn't find some random rich person and demand that they build something. Everyone took responsibility on their own and gave the max within their means.

↑ mha3484

Mon, Sep 30 2024, 11:12 am

I live OOT but our bo bayoms are class parties with maybe some family based on your own situation and a one man band. Typically held in your local shul or there are a few small event spaces you can rent if your shul doesnt have a social hall. Some even have it in their house. Food is what teenage boys like. The school doesnt require anything. Really curious what community that happens in.

ETA I just remembered a comment my boss made one morning after going to a wedding at the local hall that was opened a few years ago that offers reasonable packages. He was like they all are the same menu etc. I remember saying back bh your not in social circles that everyone needs to go fancier then the next friend. So even weddings dont need to be a contest of who can spend more.

Last edited by mha3484 on Mon, Sep 30 2024, 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

↑ Blue ↓

Mon, Sep 30 2024, 11:20 am

OddoneOut1 wrote:

This is what I tried explaining in a previous post. You did it a lot better 😎

↑ Gebentched1 ↓

Mon, Sep 30 2024, 11:27 am

amother Maroon wrote:

Wow. Mentioning something done in Europe doesn't equal romanticizing it. Did you even read my post? I'm the first to admit it's not a perfect solution. But I think its miles ahead of what we've got going now. Or what others suggested (maybe it was you, don't remember) with having the richest people in our communities support the schools.

Lol I chuckled at that person who thought mentioning things done in Europe was akin to "romantiscing things"

As someone who was born in Europe, and visits frequently, I can tell you it isn't romantic. Every community just tries to do what works for them and the smaller communities can work more efficiently than the large ones.

I beleive belguim is a good case in point. The schools are community-supported for the most part (or at least it USED to be that way). It's got nothing to do with romance.

But like I said, smaller Communities work differently, and implementing their mehalech on a larger scale would likely be impossible.

amother

Taupe

Mon, Sep 30 2024, 12:29 pm

amother Oldlace wrote:

It's more than that.
If you send your child to a yeshiva and they make going to a specific camp or camp in general mandatory, don't turn around and say "you shouldn't be sending to camp and asking for a tuition break".
Same thing seminary.
If my daughter's school (the teachers and principals) pushes and pressure to send to seminary in EY regardless of the cost, then they need to account for that expense when im negotiating tuition for the next child.
It's not ok for a school to refuse tuition allowances if I'm sending to seminary and at the same time pressure the girls and the parents to send.

And I feel this way on a smaller level also.
Administrators yell that we're spending a fortune on little girls clothes, but then make it mandatory to buy only a very specific jumper at $45 apiece and only a specific blouse at $35 apiece and only a specific sweater at $33 apiece.
Make a dress code with any navy skirt, any light blue shirt, any black sweater so I can buy my 5 year old a full outfit for $20.
Don't require me to buy only an outfit thay costs $113 and then mandate certain style shoes and then scream that we're spending too much on externals.

Are you me? You are literally quoting me verbatim...

amother

↑ OP ↓

Mon, Sep 30 2024, 1:03 pm

OddoneOut1 wrote:

It true, tuition is a massive line item in the average family’s budget and can seem almost unbearable.

Yet I don’t think people realize the amount of money in many families budgets that goes toward high end community standards. A good number of families in my neighborhood make around 200k to 275k combined income give or take, and many have 6-9 kids and are making their first or second chasunahs. That’s a chasunah every year or two at 70k to 90k. (Much of that is community standards such as chosson kallah gifts and catered shabbos sheva brachos in a hall. )

Bar mitzvah every 2-3 years which in my middle class neighborhood is a shul hall kiddush with women’s party planner 4k, shabbos catered seudah 6-8k and Bo Bayom in hall 6-7k.

Cars are mostly Avalons and SUVs or newish oddesy or sienna 10k yearly lease payments for 2 cars.

Hats are Borsalinos at $350 shoes are Jewish store $80 to $120 dresses for shabbos yom tov are $150 to $220 each and weekday is Jewish store too. Coats are $250 and up. Backpacks brand name. Add it up for parents and kids and the total is easily in the 15k to 25k in extra spending due to community clothing standards.

Sleepaway camp is standard, close to 15k for 5 kids. Take out and restaurant suppers are pretty prevalent. Many in the neighborhood are beginning to expand their 3k square foot homes via HELOC to create nice accommodations for the young marrieds etc adding 1k to 2k monthly to their mortgage payments. That is just a partial list.

Add up the above and you will see that it is not an exaggeration to say that out of the 100k to 150k in expenses listed above, there can easily be 40k to 70k EXTRA PER YEAR in expenses that many families who can’t make full tuition spend that are simply due to community standards.

Others get much of the above from chasunah tzedakas, shul funds, camp funds etc. but it’s the same community resources.

Yes there are a minority of families who are truly trying to live barebones (until they have to make a chasunah and deal with another side) and truly are maxed out, but if the families above would channel 50k to 70k per year toward their children’s schools instead of community pressure items it would go a long way towards balancing the school budget so the frugal folks could be helped as well.

The gap might even be small enough to motivate more wealthy individuals to step forward and balance the schools budget.

Solving the community lifestyle problem has to be part of the solution.

amother

Darkblue ↓

Mon, Sep 30 2024, 1:34 pm

amother OP wrote:

The people making 200-275k are NOT getting tuition breaks from the school. So even if they spend 50k a year on luxuries, it isn't affecting their ability to pay tuition.

However, if you tell them they cannot spend 50k to enjoy a comfortable life, and instead propose the 50k go to the schools (as additional tuition, or a donation)... well that just reeks of socialism.

amother

↑ Purple

Mon, Sep 30 2024, 1:51 pm

amother Darkblue wrote:

Who can afford luxuries making 275k?

We bH made 250k, have three kids, pay Lakewood full tuition, and have no money for luxuries. (We do put money into retirement funds and investments for our kids simchos.) we drive cars that are almost ten years old, I haven’t gotten a proper sheitel in 4 years, we use credit card points for non fancy vacations and skipped vacation this year to save points to visit Eretz Yisroel.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Mon, Sep 30 2024, 2:10 pm

amother Darkblue wrote:

That is just not true.
Most of my friends making in the 200k-250k range are indeed asking for, and getting tuition breaks, at least the ones with 6-8 children or more. Full tuition is up to 11k at some of the Lakewood elementary schools and Mesivta/beis medrash with dorm can go up to 14000.

200k plus income sounds like a lot but after taxes is does not allow for paying full tuition for so many kids in school- not with the life expenses outlined above.