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PinkFridge
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 Mon, Sep 30 2024, 9:39 am
| amother Maroon wrote: | Maybe it's time we copied the public school model, which is the way it was done for some time in Europe, with a central communal/Kehilla fund.
This communal fund supports ALL schools. |
Historically, what century are we talking? Did this include girls? What was the upper age limit? The lower age limit?
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amother
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Mon, Sep 30 2024, 9:46 am
| PinkFridge wrote: | | Historically, what century are we talking? Did this include girls? What was the upper age limit? The lower age limit? |
Of course not. The poster is romanticizing Europe. Few places had such a system and it was short lived where it did exist and bore no resemblance to our educational system at all. No girls in Europe received even a rudimentary education. Most girls and many women didn’t even no how to read.
Even in the large cities that had a Kehilla fund boys were out the door at 13 or earlier to start earning their keep. The Kehilla never dreamed of funding a high school education.
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amother
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Mon, Sep 30 2024, 10:07 am
| amother OP wrote: | Of course not. The poster is romanticizing Europe. Few places had such a system and it was short lived where it did exist and bore no resemblance to our educational system at all. No girls in Europe received even a rudimentary education. Most girls and many women didn’t even no how to read.
Even in the large cities that had a Kehilla fund boys were out the door at 13 or earlier to start earning their keep. The Kehilla never dreamed of funding a high school education. |
Gluckel of Hameln talks about a school system for both girls and boys.
I know women in my family who attended schools in Lithuania and Russia, but I think those schools would be categorized as "MO" today. I forgot the name of the school system, but it had a really serious curriculum and the women I knew were extremely fluent in tanach.
I'm pretty sure there were chadorim for the boys as well, in big cities. I don't know who paid, probably like today, a combination.
ETA: I just googled and maybe they weren't Orthodox at all.
It's a pity that all the non Orthodox seem to have all the money.
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amother
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Mon, Sep 30 2024, 10:11 am
| amother Maroon wrote: | Maybe it's time we copied the public school model, which is the way it was done for some time in Europe, with a central communal/Kehilla fund.
This communal fund supports ALL schools.
And EVERYONE must pay a monthly/annual "tax" towards that fund, regardless of life stage or family size. While not perfect, here's what this accomplishes:
1. Instead of being forced to pay impossible tuition fees during what are arguably the most expensive years of our lives, parents pay it out over their entire adult life. Yes, this means they're never done paying tuition, but in our world, are we ever done supporting our children/grandchildren anyways? And it will be a token amount when spread so far instead of being paid only during the 13 years your child is in school.
2. No more issues with tuition and family size as was brought up so many times in this thread. It won't be a factor at all, as everyone pays the same amount.
3. Forced transparency from the schools. Everyone gets what they need to pay their teachers and staff and maintain their building and done. There's no pocketing half a million a year and then burdening your choking parent body with higher tuition costs each year.
Obviously something like this will take tremendous effort to get off the ground, and of course there are so many holes to fix, but hey, it works for the PS system. Maybe we have something to learn from them. |
If the public school model is the way to go, then it has to be that model all the way - I.e. automatic acceptance for all kids.
We can't cherry pick one aspect, I.e. communal funds, and then ignore the other.
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amother
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Mon, Sep 30 2024, 10:15 am
This whole conversation boils down to 3 basic questions.
1) is Jewish Education a right for every child and a communal responsibility or is it just for the top 30% income
2) is being poor a moral failing or a reality. Is it a Jewish obligation for every Jewish family to be in the top 5% income or is there a place for Jewish teachers and babysitters and nurses and bus drivers
3) is having children the privilege of the rich.
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amother
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Mon, Sep 30 2024, 10:16 am
| amother Maroon wrote: | Maybe it's time we copied the public school model, which is the way it was done for some time in Europe, with a central communal/Kehilla fund.
This communal fund supports ALL schools.
And EVERYONE must pay a monthly/annual "tax" towards that fund, regardless of life stage or family size. While not perfect, here's what this accomplishes:
1. Instead of being forced to pay impossible tuition fees during what are arguably the most expensive years of our lives, parents pay it out over their entire adult life. Yes, this means they're never done paying tuition, but in our world, are we ever done supporting our children/grandchildren anyways? And it will be a token amount when spread so far instead of being paid only during the 13 years your child is in school.
2. No more issues with tuition and family size as was brought up so many times in this thread. It won't be a factor at all, as everyone pays the same amount.
3. Forced transparency from the schools. Everyone gets what they need to pay their teachers and staff and maintain their building and done. There's no pocketing half a million a year and then burdening your choking parent body with higher tuition costs each year.
Obviously something like this will take tremendous effort to get off the ground, and of course there are so many holes to fix, but hey, it works for the PS system. Maybe we have something to learn from them. |
Curious how something like this can be implemented. For example, take the older folks whose children are grown, or someone with only their younger ones in school now. They would never agree to pay a lifetime, and rightfully so. They've struggled through all the years, now they get to breathe.
And as an aside, I can just see our communities taking advantage of this. It would start off with low amounts and then skyrocket in the future. Unfortunately, based on precedence, we take advantage of our own. This will end up being a future power grab that will benefit those in power, on the backs of the hardworking community members. I have zero faith in our communities running such funds.
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amother
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Mon, Sep 30 2024, 10:18 am
| Gebentched1 wrote: | So schools should accept students (families) based on income status and not merit?
There's already major issues with kids being unable to get into schools, now add in another factor like Financials to keep stacking the deck against middle class families?
(btw I don't totally disagree with you, just pointing out a small flaw with your solution) |
No of course they shouldn't, but just like a high school will faster take a girl that is smarter v. Same caliber girl who is average intelligence, you need to accept the fact that if you have two of the exact same families and one is willing to pay full tuition and then some and one isn't, they might sometimes want to pick the one that could pay.
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amother
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Mon, Sep 30 2024, 10:30 am
| amother Oldlace wrote: | This whole conversation boils down to 3 basic questions.
1) is Jewish Education a right for every child and a communal responsibility or is it just for the top 30% income
2) is being poor a moral failing or a reality. Is it a Jewish obligation for every Jewish family to be in the top 5% income or is there a place for Jewish teachers and babysitters and nurses and bus drivers
3) is having children the privilege of the rich. |
There is one last basic question you left out:
4) Is it reasonable for the bottom 70% of our community to generally (not every single individual family) live like the top 30% of the secular population in so many aspects and in celebrating life cycle events, yet still expect to have their children’s private school educational costs to be a right and entitlement that “the community” needs to figure out for them rather than a personal responsibility?
It sure wasn’t that way in Europe when the Kehilla had a cheder.
The Rav of our middle class working class shul told us that when all is said and done, the average working family- that needs to come on to some Tzedaka help to make a wedding- spends between $70,000 and $90,000 one one child’s wedding FOR ONE SIDE.
The “babysitters and bus drivers” in the non Jewish world wouldn’t dream of spending the above. The bottom 30% of the secular world simply don’t live in $750k- 1.25k large homes. They don’t wear $50-$80 school shoes, $150 outfits, drive 2 newer model cars, or send the kids to expensive sleepaway camp. They don’t turn up their noses at shopping for clothes in Walmart and other discounters. They don’t even buy $200-300 worth of cuts of meat- even for a holiday. Or get the above from tzedaka and communal organizations- it boils down to the same thing; community resources.
There is this huge dichotomy of the average family living like the above average income family and then finding tuition to be out of their budget. Until we address this as a community the answer to your question is that there is no place for “Jewish teachers and babysitters and nurses and bus drivers” because we as a community are not allowing for that space.
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amother
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Mon, Sep 30 2024, 10:48 am
| amother OP wrote: | | 4) Is it reasonable for the bottom 70% of our community to generally (not every single individual family) live like the top 30% of the secular population in so many aspects and in celebrating life cycle events, yet still expect to have their children’s private school educational costs to be a right and entitlement that “the community” needs to figure out for them rather than a personal responsibility? |
The answer to # 4 depends on the societal setup. If you promote conformity as a strong value, then the answer is yes, its reaosnable. You can't promote conformity for some stuff and then push for the opposite for the rest. You can't play on both sides of the fences.
If we promote individualism and personal choices, then the answer to your question is no. But we don't promote it at all. In some communities, it goes so far that we negatively label and sideline those who display individualism. So how can you demand this from people?
You have to make a choice. Conformity or individualism? If it's the former, then accept consequences of it on a community level. If it's the latter, then you put the consequences on the individual level. But again, you can't play it both ways.
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amother
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Mon, Sep 30 2024, 10:49 am
| amother Bronze wrote: | This would never work and could never be implemented.
If you are comparing it to the "old country" in the 19th century or before, there was one school and probably one synagogue and it was funded by the people of that small united community.
If you are comparing it to public schools, they are funded by mandatory taxes which have complicated ways of calculating amounts due and have the ability to enforce through various legal measures including prison and foreclosure. Not to mention that there is one public school system that is controlled by one school district for each municipality and to a great extent no choice as to where to send your child.
I was scanning the thread this morning on a imamother seeking input on a RWMO school and the nuances in terms of recommendations. Not calling out this as being a wrong thing but just pointing out how specific many people are in terms of exactly what criteria the school must be and I can't imagine this mindset would accept a one size fits all school. |
I know it would take too much to implement, I said that in my post. But it would solve almost every problem with tuition.
Don't know where you got the idea that I meant one school. Absolutely not. Everyone pays a set amount (either a percentage of salary like tax or everyone pays the exact same) and the money is pooled and then divided among different schools. Of course, there would need to be a central body controlling the fund and overseeing the collection and distribution of the money.
Not sure why you think public school is not by choice. It absolutely is. First of all, parents choose neighborhoods to raise their kids based on the schools in the area, but if they want their child to travel, the can apply to a school in another district. In any case, that has no relevance here as it would just be a central fund for all schools, unrelated to school choice.
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amother
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Mon, Sep 30 2024, 10:54 am
| amother Stoneblue wrote: | The answer to # 4 depends on the societal setup. If you promote conformity as a strong value, then the answer is yes, its reaosnable. You can't promote conformity for some stuff and then push for the opposite for the rest. You can't play on both sides of the fences.
If we promote individualism and personal choices, then the answer to your question is no. But we don't promote it at all. In some communities, it goes so far that we negatively label and sideline those who display individualism. So how can you demand this from people?
You have to make a choice. Conformity or individualism? If it's the former, then accept consequences of it on a community level. If it's the latter, then you put the consequences on the individual level. But again, you can't play it both ways. |
100%.
I think people can choose to live on their income levels and NOT like the upper 30% of secular society like OP claims, until it's time to marry off their kids. Then all bets are off.
Personally, I would love to marry off my kids with weddings that are as big and cost as little as bar mitzvahs, but because of the way our society dictates that everyone must celebrate this milestone at a certain level, this would literally be seen as neglect and a one-way ticket to therapy for my kid. And, of course, the other side would never agree, because same story there. We've dug ourselves a hole that only gets deeper with time.
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amother
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Mon, Sep 30 2024, 10:58 am
| amother Stoneblue wrote: | Curious how something like this can be implemented. For example, take the older folks whose children are grown, or someone with only their younger ones in school now. They would never agree to pay a lifetime, and rightfully so. They've struggled through all the years, now they get to breathe.
And as an aside, I can just see our communities taking advantage of this. It would start off with low amounts and then skyrocket in the future. Unfortunately, based on precedence, we take advantage of our own. This will end up being a future power grab that will benefit those in power, on the backs of the hardworking community members. I have zero faith in our communities running such funds. |
I said it would be difficult to implement at this point, specifically because of the older crowd. But I do think it would be a more logical setup than what we have now.
I, for one, would love for my tuition costs to be cut in half now when I'm still paying off my mortgage, have my entire family living at home, which means paying for all their tuition, clothing, food, camp, braces etc. and need to save up for weddings.
Besides, you're asking for gvir'im (collective you, not you specifically) to support the schools, even if their own kids have long graduated. Why shouldn't everyone support them equally if we're talking a token amount each month?
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amother
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Mon, Sep 30 2024, 11:04 am
| amother Maroon wrote: | 100%.
I think people can choose to live on their income levels and NOT like the upper 30% of secular society like OP claims, until it's time to marry off their kids. Then all bets are off.
Personally, I would love to marry off my kids with weddings that are as big and cost as little as bar mitzvahs, but because of the way our society dictates that everyone must celebrate this milestone at a certain level, this would literally be seen as neglect and a one-way ticket to therapy for my kid. And, of course, the other side would never agree, because same story there. We've dug ourselves a hole that only gets deeper with time. |
Then maybe our consternation at a tuition system that doesn’t work and has no solution is misplaced. We have managed to get ourselves stuck between a rock and a hard place. Maybe this is the impetus we need to rethink our high end societal dictates rather that shoot the helpless school administrators.
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amother
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Mon, Sep 30 2024, 11:04 am
| amother OP wrote: | Of course not. The poster is romanticizing Europe. Few places had such a system and it was short lived where it did exist and bore no resemblance to our educational system at all. No girls in Europe received even a rudimentary education. Most girls and many women didn’t even no how to read.
Even in the large cities that had a Kehilla fund boys were out the door at 13 or earlier to start earning their keep. The Kehilla never dreamed of funding a high school education. |
Wow. Mentioning something done in Europe doesn't equal romanticizing it. Did you even read my post? I'm the first to admit it's not a perfect solution. But I think its miles ahead of what we've got going now. Or what others suggested (maybe it was you, don't remember) with having the richest people in our communities support the schools.
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amother
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Mon, Sep 30 2024, 11:05 am
| amother Maroon wrote: | 100%.
I think people can choose to live on their income levels and NOT like the upper 30% of secular society like OP claims, until it's time to marry off their kids. Then all bets are off.
Personally, I would love to marry off my kids with weddings that are as big and cost as little as bar mitzvahs, but because of the way our society dictates that everyone must celebrate this milestone at a certain level, this would literally be seen as neglect and a one-way ticket to therapy for my kid. And, of course, the other side would never agree, because same story there. We've dug ourselves a hole that only gets deeper with time. |
It's more than that.
If you send your child to a yeshiva and they make going to a specific camp or camp in general mandatory, don't turn around and say "you shouldn't be sending to camp and asking for a tuition break".
Same thing seminary.
If my daughter's school (the teachers and principals) pushes and pressure to send to seminary in EY regardless of the cost, then they need to account for that expense when im negotiating tuition for the next child.
It's not ok for a school to refuse tuition allowances if I'm sending to seminary and at the same time pressure the girls and the parents to send.
And I feel this way on a smaller level also.
Administrators yell that we're spending a fortune on little girls clothes, but then make it mandatory to buy only a very specific jumper at $45 apiece and only a specific blouse at $35 apiece and only a specific sweater at $33 apiece.
Make a dress code with any navy skirt, any light blue shirt, any black sweater so I can buy my 5 year old a full outfit for $20.
Don't require me to buy only an outfit thay costs $113 and then mandate certain style shoes and then scream that we're spending too much on externals.
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amother
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Mon, Sep 30 2024, 11:07 am
| amother OP wrote: | | Then maybe our consternation at a tuition system that doesn’t work and has no solution is misplaced. We have managed to get ourselves stuck between a rock and a hard place. Maybe this is the impetus we need to rethink our high end societal dictates rather that shoot the helpless school administrators. |
But why do you think this would change if it hasn't since the 90s? People have been screaming about this for years and years.
And no one is shooting "helpless school administrators".
They're aiming for the ones that antagonize parents already choking under financial stress, shaming and guilting them for not making more money appear. And the ones that claim their schools are poverty stricken and in need of tzedakkah and then turn around and pocket abominably high salaries by any standard.
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amother
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Mon, Sep 30 2024, 11:10 am
| amother Oldlace wrote: | It's more than that.
If you send your child to a yeshiva and they make going to a specific camp or camp in general mandatory, don't turn around and say "you shouldn't be sending to camp and asking for a tuition break".
Same thing seminary.
If my daughter's school (the teachers and principals) pushes and pressure to send to seminary in EY regardless of the cost, then they need to account for that expense when im negotiating tuition for the next child.
It's not ok for a school to refuse tuition allowances if I'm sending to seminary and at the same time pressure the girls and the parents to send.
And I feel this way on a smaller level also.
Administrators yell that we're spending a fortune on little girls clothes, but then make it mandatory to buy only a very specific jumper at $45 apiece and only a specific blouse at $35 apiece and only a specific sweater at $33 apiece.
Make a dress code with any navy skirt, any light blue shirt, any black sweater so I can buy my 5 year old a full outfit for $20.
Don't require me to buy only an outfit thay costs $113 and then mandate certain style shoes and then scream that we're spending too much on externals. |
You're right. I would add seminary and uniforms to the list after weddings. That's the most I spend on clothes ever and it bothers me every year. You can find very plain flats for cheap, wouldn't put that down as a necessary expense.
Not up to seminary yet, but it scares me. Camp is not mandatory in my community, though. Which communities make it mandatory? I know chassidish yeshivas go upstate, but isn't that similar to what they'd be paying for daycamp?
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amother
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Mon, Sep 30 2024, 11:13 am
I think that parents are doing all they can. The change has to come from the schools in two ways:
Transparency- as many have mentioned. Opening books and auditing to ensure fiscal responsibility. Cutting unnecessary programs and staff.
Increasing Revenue- schools should try to find additional revenue sources- whether establishing a Simcha hall in the building, expanding the building and renting part of it, ensuring that they are maximizing the money they have and earning compound interest which can go back to fund the schools.
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amother
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Mon, Sep 30 2024, 11:18 am
| amother Maroon wrote: | You're right. I would add seminary and uniforms to the list after weddings. That's the most I spend on clothes ever and it bothers me every year. You can find very plain flats for cheap, wouldn't put that down as a necessary expense.
Not up to seminary yet, but it scares me. Camp is not mandatory in my community, though. Which communities make it mandatory? I know chassidish yeshivas go upstate, but isn't that similar to what they'd be paying for daycamp? |
My son's mesivta Rebbeim, menahelim and everyone involved strongly pushed many times over again that my sons would go to sleep away learning camps. That cost $2500 roughly and theyre past daycamp.
If the Rebbi and menahel is pushing it so much, don't penalize me for sending.
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amother
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Mon, Sep 30 2024, 11:24 am
| amother Natural wrote: | I think that parents are doing all they can. The change has to come from the schools in two ways:
Transparency- as many have mentioned. Opening books and auditing to ensure fiscal responsibility. Cutting unnecessary programs and staff.
Increasing Revenue- schools should try to find additional revenue sources- whether establishing a Simcha hall in the building, expanding the building and renting part of it, ensuring that they are maximizing the money they have and earning compound interest which can go back to fund the schools. |
Every bit helps but in the end it’s largely squeezing water from a rock. There just no way to fund even a basic secular private school on $6000 tuition even with 3 wedding halls, certainly not a frum one, even with perfect fiscal discipline
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