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Forum
-> Household Management
-> Finances
amother
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 Sun, Sep 29 2024, 2:08 pm
| amother Blue wrote: | | Cmon, lets not make this into petty silliness, you surely know that this was never about "forced redistribution" of wealth. |
Pretty sure she was being snarky.
But it’s always easier to spend someone else’s money, no?
I think tuition should be a flat percentage of everyone’s income. What they really bring in. No lying, no hiding. And if someone is found to be hiding they get a major kenas.
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amother
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Sun, Sep 29 2024, 2:12 pm
| amother Stoneblue wrote: | Likewise. I take it even further. I ignore the person totally. I can't take him/her seriously if the perspective is not rooted in reality.
If both parents are working, then how is homeschooling an option? If someone is SAHM in a tight financial situation, that doesn't automatically mean she can go out to work, or teach her kids. If you are under the assumption that a SAHM is twiddling her thumbs all day and has spare time to teach her kids, then I can't take you seriously. If you believe that just about any parent can homeschool, then I can't take you seriously. And if you think that someone should give up their job to homeschool their kids, then not only can I not take you seriously but I think you have lost the plot. |
I'll take it a step further than that.
I actually tried homeschooling. And discovered that even with a committed, idealistic parent and kids on board, it doesn't always work very well.
I'd imagine that it's even less likely to work with a parent or child who is forced into it.
As I asked before, do we value education or not?
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amother
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Sun, Sep 29 2024, 2:16 pm
| amother RosePink wrote: | Pretty sure she was being snarky.
But it’s always easier to spend someone else’s money, no?
I think tuition should be a flat percentage of everyone’s income. What they really bring in. No lying, no hiding. And if someone is found to be hiding they get a major kenas. |
I'm behind this type of solution in general, although I see the merits of a lifetime "tax" rather than only when your kids are in school. But how would it be distributed if you have children in multiple institutions?
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amother
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Sun, Sep 29 2024, 2:31 pm
| amother Blue wrote: | This is very silly, you surely know that this was never about "forced redistribution" of wealth.
how did recommending that rabbanim provide halachik guidlines to the ultra, ultra, wealthy gvirim of how to tithe (according to the Torah), turn into such a dramatic dystopian diatribe? |
| amother Blue wrote: | Huh? These weren't my points... I never mentioned parents being shuftim...
My point was, who is holding our community billionaires responsible for the chinuch of our generation when the poor and Middle class simply cannot? Who is guiding them on tzedaka k'halacha? Why isn't the spotlight being shone on them |
Sure sounds like you want to absolve the parents of their responsibility and tell the gevirim how to spend their money…
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amother
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Sun, Sep 29 2024, 2:33 pm
| amother OP wrote: | I think just to be on the safe side we should have a mechanism where the money gevirim earns is out of their reach. It should first have to flow through an account managed my a panel of low income parents and imamothers.
After directing the appropriate amount of funds to a hierarchy of communal causes in order of priority the panel will then decide on an appropriate allowance for the gevir keeping in mind that a somewhat higher lifestyle is warranted, but not extravagance that will adversely impact hard working people.
If the gevir misuses his allowance, consequences will include lowering his allowance and restricting his lifestyle choices.
Forced redistribution of wealth is the way to go. No longer will school budgets be balanced on the backs of the working class. Long live the proletariat. |
Forced poverty is the way to go. We need to keep adding requirements to the yiddishe lifestyle so that sooner or later every family is living in utter poverty.
To start off with, the average chosson should have zero financial education and have no parnossoh life skills under his belt.
The average kallah should insist on kollel learning for x amount of years to ensure that no financial foundation can be set for their future.
The average family should be encouraged to have as many children as possible without any financial consideration.
Higher education for top-paying fields should be deemed inappropriate for our youth.
The schools should continue to reinforce that seminary is an absolute must for a future yiddishe mammeh.
We shouldn't dare breach the standards of weddings, where the event must cater to 150 couples and the kallahs get $12-15k worth of jewelry, and their starter apt outfitted to the tee, etc..
Schools must continue making demands of the parents to pay for annual shabbatons, plays, costly trips and expensive extra curricular activities.
Kosher food should be priced at top dollar, with multiple hashgachas added to all foods to ensure the prices remain inflated.
Yom Tov needs to be an ultra costly affair, otherwise it isn't considered honoring the YT.
And to ensure that no one can wiggle out of the above to live in a somewhat comfortable state - ensure that tuition is priced above anyone's reach so that abject poverty reigns throughout our communities.
....
Then when the children of these homes grow up and the OTD crisis undoubtedly gets magnified tenfold, blame the parents for not raising them right.
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amother
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Sun, Sep 29 2024, 2:37 pm
| amother OP wrote: | | Sure sounds like you want to absolve the parents of their responsibility and tell the gevirim how to spend their money… |
Absolutely not. Sorry you took it that way.
I simply see that there's no way an average family with an average income can spend 13k+ (or much more, and this doesn't include anything extracurricular) per kid on tuition.
Somethings gotta give.
Jewish education IS a necessity (not a luxury)
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amother
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Sun, Sep 29 2024, 2:41 pm
| amother Pistachio wrote: | | I'm behind this type of solution in general, although I see the merits of a lifetime "tax" rather than only when your kids are in school. But how would it be distributed if you have children in multiple institutions? |
Back in the day, I think Chicago had a system like this. The tuition for all schools was managed by one company/federation and they gave out the money to each school.
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amother
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Sun, Sep 29 2024, 2:41 pm
| amother Blue wrote: | Absolutely not. Sorry you took it that way.
I simply see that there's no way an average family with an average income can spend 13k+ per kid on tuition. Somethings gotta give. |
That’s the cost of tuition. Public schools get more than that per student.
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amother
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Sun, Sep 29 2024, 2:44 pm
| amother RosePink wrote: | | That’s the cost of tuition. Public schools get more than that per student. |
Right. And public school is paid for by EVERYONE. Not only those with children, or those with children in that school, or those who like the principal. And the wealthy families pay significantly more, whether or not they personally benefit from the school.
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amother
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Sun, Sep 29 2024, 2:44 pm
| amother RosePink wrote: | | Back in the day, I think Chicago had a system like this. The tuition for all schools was managed by one company/federation and they gave out the money to each school. |
Yeah I wonder what happened to that.
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amother
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Sun, Sep 29 2024, 2:49 pm
| amother Pistachio wrote: | | Right. And public school is paid for by EVERYONE. Not only those with children, or those with children in that school, or those who like the principal. And the wealthy families pay significantly more, whether or not they personally benefit from the school. |
In public schools? Everyone pays the same percentage from taxes.
For private schools? Depends where you send. Parochial schools are much less than college prep schools, typically.
Yiu have a choice of where to send.
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amother
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Sun, Sep 29 2024, 2:50 pm
| amother Maroon wrote: | Ok, so I guess I sent to a cheaper school. We paid less than $4000 10 years ago, standard kollel break at the time.
Either way, this was a decade ago, not 30 years ago like the poster claimed. |
I didn't get a break! I paid full.
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mha3484
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Sun, Sep 29 2024, 2:51 pm
Chicago has the kehillah fund started by Dr Walder. https://www.kehillahfund.org/a.....e-do/
Its a very interesting model. Community members of every life stage and hashkafa sign up to donate to the fund and the money gets pooled and distributed to a wide variety of schools. They also give money to offset larger expenses like special ed programs. I dont see this working in town.
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amother
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Sun, Sep 29 2024, 2:52 pm
| amother RosePink wrote: | In public schools? Everyone pays the same percentage from taxes.
For private schools? Depends where you send. Parochial schools are much less than college prep schools, typically.
Yiu have a choice of where to send. |
However, in that world, private school of any kind IS a luxury. There is a perfectly acceptable substitute available for free. Not so in the frum world.
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amother
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Sun, Sep 29 2024, 2:57 pm
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Gevirim are always going to be part of the solution but they will never be the full solution for a multitude of reasons. The only feasible solution I see is for the community as a whole to stop living at a standard comparable to the top 10%-20% of the non Jewish world and start living closer to the average non Jewish middle to lower middle class standard, freeing up money for tuition, while simultaneously urging those few who continue to live at a higher standard and can afford to do so to contribute more toward communal chinuch funds.
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amother
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Sun, Sep 29 2024, 2:59 pm
| amother Pistachio wrote: | Do you also feel this way about the gevirim being expected to pay for the bulk of the new shul, the mikvah, the kollel, and hatzalah? Part of the bracha of wealth is the ability to have the zechus for the entire community.
I'd pay full tuition if I could. The only problem is that then I'd need to pay over 70% of our total household income. If someone feels up to showing me how to make it work, I'll be happy to share our expenses and you can tell me how it's possible. (I don't have a Doona if that helps.) |
No, I don't 'expect' it.
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jd1212
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Sun, Sep 29 2024, 3:01 pm
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in public schools people do not pay the same %. It’s based on property taxes, so people with large homes/high tax municipalities pay more.
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amother
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Sun, Sep 29 2024, 3:02 pm
| amother OP wrote: | | Gevirim are always going to be part of the solution but they will never be the full solution for a multitude of reasons. The only feasible solution I see is for the community as a whole to stop living at a standard comparable to the top 10%-20% of the non Jewish world and start living closer to the average non Jewish middle to lower middle class standard, freeing up money for tuition, while simultaneously urging those few who continue to live at a higher standard and can afford to do so to contribute more toward communal chinuch funds. |
Ppl contribute to their children's schools!
In Lakewood, there are what, 50-80 elementary schools?
Schools should accept some gevirim, they eill give money.
People here are simultaneously knocking schools that try to "cozy up to the rich" so that they could have enough money not to raise tuition and also demanding that the rich people pay for everyone's tuition...
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amother
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Sun, Sep 29 2024, 3:07 pm
| amother Oxfordblue wrote: | Two things need to change:
1. The schools need to open their books to parents and show exactly how all funds are being spent. Especially if they’re demanding parents to do the same to get a tuition discount.
2. The schools money should be handled by a business administrator or someone qualified, not a random yeshiva guy who doesn’t have a business background. There are schools that are very wealthy because their funds are handled by business men and they invest extra money wisely. |
Point 2 doesn't seem to be true. Business men do not do better financial jobs at running schools than
yeshiva guys. One of the major reasons why the frum world turned away from the 70s type model where wealthy successful businessmen on the boards of shuls and schools had a lot of power over the internal running of the schools or shul was because of the disastrous outcomes some of them led those schools and shuls to. Even in financial matters
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amother
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Sun, Sep 29 2024, 3:25 pm
| jd1212 wrote: | | in public schools people do not pay the same %. It’s based on property taxes, so people with large homes/high tax municipalities pay more. |
And some people get tax breaks or credits, even on large homes. Or don’t pay taxes at all.
And gevirim don’t have to be told how to spend their money.
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