Tuition Crisis- Mishpacha Magazine feature article

amother

↑ Bellflower ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 12:15 pm

amother Blue wrote:

Huh? These weren't my points... I never mentioned parents being shuftim...

My point was, who is holding our community billionaires responsible for the chinuch of our generation when the poor and Middle class simply cannot? Who is guiding them on tzedaka k'halacha? Why isn't the spotlight being shone on them and why aren't they at the helm making changes that are clearly needed (to the obvious and glaring issues that you pointed out) ? Are rabbonim even pushing for this? Or are they just assisting in funneling 100 million dollars to kollelim across the world?

You don't have to agree with my question or point but please don't put words in my my mouth

I wasn't quoting you. Those were MY words, paraphrased from points that were said again and again in the article.

You questioned why gevirim aren't stepping up and brought up some possible reasons.

I responded with the answers I read in the article. Make parents your shutfim so they will help more. Open your books and have more transparency. These two actions will go a long way to alleviate the tuition crisis. And will also address the concerns you mentioned.

amother

↑ Maroon ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 2:31 pm

amother Blue wrote:

I don't think I said no one want to ASK for money. but I'm saying no one wants to really explain their responsibility to the community as stated in the Torah.

That's all. You can disagree with me. That's OK.

But facts are facts.

A family with three-four kids making an average salary of 150k combined pretax CANNOT pay 13k+ per child in tuition. Period. Full stop. The math just doesn't math. Or as the young ones say "ya gotta change things up, buttercup" (lol that line always makes me laugh and want reeses buttercups)

And like I said, if the community gvirim don't feel comfortable giving to institutions with the way they're currently functioning then change things up. Make it honest and transparent. It's not impossible (that is, if they care enough).

I agree wholeheartedly with your last point.

I agree with you that chinuch should 100% be prioritized among donors. It really bothered me when they collected for the yungeleit in EY while so many local schools were allegedly collapsing.

But like I said upthread, it's not about chinuch anymore. It's about mismanaged schools/businesses. The ship has sailed and I'm not so sure your theory is correct that schools would agree to open their books if they had the backing of a gvir. I guess we'll never know until someone tries it.

amother

↑ Maroon ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 2:39 pm

amother Bellflower wrote:

Again, I saw this point being brought up over and over again in the article.

Make the parents your shutfim and they will help you. Open the books and people will donate. People don't want to donate to a bottomless pit where they don't know exactly where the money is going.

These are very important points and cannot be stated enough times.

Hopefully articles such as this will open the door for more productive fundraising (besides for parents pushing themselves more to pay more tuition).

Ok, so we're agreeing more than we're disagreeing here. This thread has come full circle and most of us agree that:

1. Tuition/chinuch/our schools should be top priority on a personal level and communal level

2. The way things are right now, no one is jumping to support schools

3. Schools need an image overhaul and to open their books if they want parents and the community to give them the kind of money they need to survive

The main point we're arguing over now is whether #3 is ever going to happen. Personally, I'm too jaded by now to believe it can change, but apparently some posters here have more hope in the system than I do.

amother

Gladiolus

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 3:05 pm

In the Mo world,schools are much more expensive but they all file 990s so parents know where the money goes. Also,all schools are owned by a board,never by a single person. They are overseen by a Vaad which would never allow for a single person to own a school. Where are the Rabbanim in this and why are they are not addressing this crisis urgently? How can they tell ppl to continue having as many kids as possible,promote kollel but not have a mechanism to make tuition affordable?

amother

↑ Blue ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 3:28 pm

amother Bellflower wrote:

I agree with you, but just know - when someone doesn't want to give, they will come up with every reason and excuse not to. and the reasons might not even be wrong, but as I stated in my previous post, there ARE ways for them to restructure things in a way that makes sense to them. there CAN be a way for them to give so that it's not just tossing money nonsensically, into a burning furnace that always needs to consume more and more .

When there's a will, there's a way. (and a way that makes sense too - financially, halachically, ethically, and that feels right to the donor).

There just isn't that desire, it seems (and I question if rabbonim are even trying to counsel gvirim on their communal responsibility, as stated in the torah, towards educating our children).

Middle class families on middle class incomes simply CANNOT pay tuition on a standard salary (or 2 standard salary's), and no amount of skimping on squeeze yogurts and exclusively drinking tap water (or bathing multiple kids in the same bathwater) is going to change that (these examples were given upthread that's why I'm mentioning them). Yes, it helps financially to scrimp and save, and to be responsible with money, but that wont make 10's of thousands for tuition magically appear.

amother

↑ Bronze ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 3:41 pm

There is really no way to fix the issue and I am surprised that it has gone this long.

Bottom line is that private school tuition - however discounted - is not affordable for a middle class family.

It appears that the Chassish community essentially treats their school system as a community system and the community as a whole feels an obligation to support it. At least that is my understanding as it isn't my community.

Given the fractured nature of the Litvish/Yeshivish school system, any solution based on community funding is a pipe dream. Nor have I seen any viable solutions every proposed whenever one of these threads appears - as they periodically appear.

The smaller OOT communities do seem to have community support but that seems to be based upon there being one or at most two schools that serve the community. Everyone goes there and everyone is accepted. Or at least that seems to be true from what I have read on imamother.

amother

Ginger

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 3:43 pm

I did not read the whole thread but I don't agree that it's on the gvirim to pay for education for he whole community. If everyone paid full tuition then we would be on a different boat even if it wouldn't fully cover. There would be MUCH less to fundraise. I read the article and agree with some of it but not all of it. It is every parents responsibility to pay for their children's chinuch and not rely on the community.
Signed- someone who pays full tuition totaling above 60k for a few kids even though it would be easier to be like others who decide not to. And I know plenty of ppl who specifically don't pay fully as they feel that the school should want to educate their children. Told me to my face they have no obligation to pay for their kids education.

amother

↑ Gold ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 3:43 pm

Schools need to be more transparent.
We have the head of my kids school who takes in a high enough salary to live in a home worth millions. Travel. Drives a car much newer than mine.
And the school hired his wife to run a program definitely not qualified for.
Let's just be polite and say she isn't trained in what she supposedly does. But gets a fancy salary.

The school hires a LOT of relatives of current teachers/staff/admin.

I wish schools would be more transparent about their costs.
Are they willing to use a professional accountant to audit the books and see how they can save?
I know someone who offered their services for free to help the school out and they refused. So now they pay a staff member for it.
Are they getting multiple bids for different jobs?

I also believe families wanting discounts should show their expenses/income/taxes. We do.

amother

Oxfordblue

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 3:48 pm

Two things need to change:
1. The schools need to open their books to parents and show exactly how all funds are being spent. Especially if they’re demanding parents to do the same to get a tuition discount.
2. The schools money should be handled by a business administrator or someone qualified, not a random yeshiva guy who doesn’t have a business background. There are schools that are very wealthy because their funds are handled by business men and they invest extra money wisely.

amother

↑ Blue ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 3:49 pm

amother Ginger wrote:

How completely disconnected of you to make it seem like people have a choice. in many many cases they simply cannot.

They are not skirting the tuition obligation.

If you know "plenty of people" who feel entitled to discounted tuition just "because" then maybe you need a new social circle. These people clearly don't share your yashrus and values.

amother

↑ Sapphire ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 3:50 pm

amother Blue wrote:

Who decided that "community gevirim" need to support your kids' schools? This attitude is gross. I'm literally reading people on this thread talking about how the $400 they spend on the doona and probably the $500 that they spend eating out every once in awhile, doesn't make a difference, so why should they bother living within their means to pay more tuition.

And then the next person is complaining about $100 a month increase. Right there in my paragraph above is the $1,000 that you need to pay for 1 kid. Many people want everyone else to make sacrifices. But not them.

I never thought to ask for a tuition break especially in Lakewood, where tuition is just a few thousand dollars in most schools, up until recently. Also up until recently people were making way less money. I had no money. We had $1000 in the bank. My husband was interning for free. We used cash back for bills, not hotels or flights. I shopped in the cheapest frum stores. We drove an old car, lived in a rundown tiny house. But we paid full tuition.

15 years ago, people made $18-25 max per hr. Now it's starting salary. Everything rose along with the salaries.

But there are some people, no not everyone, I am definitely not talking about everyone, but some people, who insist on not paying their fair share. They want discounted tuition & vacations. And expect other ppl to pick up the slack.

The article adressed it. It is the obligation of the father to teach their child and if you can't afford tuition you can homeschool. Or you could try to send to a school that charges less instead of the ones that have a reputation for charging a lot more. It is definitely not the obligation of the community to pay to educate your child.

Gebentched1 ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 3:53 pm

amother Sapphire wrote:

You may not agree with it, but it's not "gross" for the topmost wealthy people to help support communal chinuch efforts. Halachik guidelines state that a top priority should be to support chinuch. it's not "gross".

also, you make a LOT of assumptions in your post - you postulate that people asking for tuition breaks are the same people that "probably" spend $500 eating out. You see an anonymous post about someone buying a $400 doona and assume that person is getting tuition breaks?

Again, I get why you may disagree, but gross? maybe the term you meant to use was "brazen", but maybe a brazen attitude is what we need to fix this gargantuan problem....

amother

↑ Stoneblue ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 4:01 pm

amother Sapphire wrote:

It depends on the context. If people can't pay for just the increase, then the above is applicable. But if people can't pay by large, then the above is tone deaf. If your total tuition for your family is $40k and you're lucky to scrape together 15k, then spending a $500 annually for what the school deemed to be an extra, will have no impact on tuition.

Secondly, restricting people lives to the degree where they are literally choked for every penny will have devastating impacts for our future. If yiddishkeit means a lifelong continuous struggle with zero breathing room, then many of our children will question it. The standard way of living for the average family can't be in the form of a chokehold. It has to be liveable, have room for air, and promote positive vibes.

Parents, for the most part, are already stretched way too thin to pay the huge tuition fees. Putting more onto them will only break our societal setup, and not help overall in the big picture. The solution needs to come from other sources.

↑ Gebentched1 ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 4:29 pm

mha3484 wrote:

The vast majority of us need to two incomes which rules out homeschooling so that leaves yeshiva or public school. So for every one who says or home school it sets a precedent that the rich can have a Jewish education and everyone else gets public school. To me this is not only sad but also really not good for society overall.

I honestly thought that anyone who suggested homeschooling was being facetious. there are just so many (very obvious) issues with homeschooling.

amother

↑ Pistachio ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 4:31 pm

amother Sapphire wrote:

Who decided that "community gevirim" need to support your kids' schools? This attitude is gross.

Do you also feel this way about the gevirim being expected to pay for the bulk of the new shul, the mikvah, the kollel, and hatzalah? Part of the bracha of wealth is the ability to have the zechus for the entire community.

I'd pay full tuition if I could. The only problem is that then I'd need to pay over 70% of our total household income. If someone feels up to showing me how to make it work, I'll be happy to share our expenses and you can tell me how it's possible. (I don't have a Doona if that helps.)

amother

↑ Stoneblue ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 4:38 pm

Gebentched1 wrote:

I honestly thought that anyone who suggested homeschooling was being facetious. there are just so many (very obvious) issues with homeschooling.

Likewise. I take it even further. I ignore the person totally. I can't take him/her seriously if the perspective is not rooted in reality.

If both parents are working, then how is homeschooling an option? If someone is SAHM in a tight financial situation, that doesn't automatically mean she can go out to work, or teach her kids. If you are under the assumption that a SAHM is twiddling her thumbs all day and has spare time to teach her kids, then I can't take you seriously. If you believe that just about any parent can homeschool, then I can't take you seriously. And if you think that someone should give up their job to homeschool their kids, then not only can I not take you seriously but I think you have lost the plot.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 4:52 pm

I think just to be on the safe side we should have a mechanism where the money gevirim earns is out of their reach. It should first have to flow through an account managed my a panel of low income parents and imamothers.

After directing the appropriate amount of funds to a hierarchy of communal causes in order of priority the panel will then decide on an appropriate allowance for the gevir keeping in mind that a somewhat higher lifestyle is warranted, but not extravagance that will adversely impact hard working people.

If the gevir misuses his allowance, consequences will include lowering his allowance and restricting his lifestyle choices.

Forced redistribution of wealth is the way to go. No longer will school budgets be balanced on the backs of the working class. Long live the proletariat.

amother

↑ Blue ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 5:05 pm

amother OP wrote:

This is very silly, you surely know that this was never about "forced redistribution" of wealth.

how did recommending that rabbanim provide halachik guidlines to the ultra, ultra, wealthy gvirim of how to tithe (according to the Torah), turn into such a dramatic dystopian diatribe?