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amother
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 Sun, Jul 07 2024, 7:16 am
BH I have the time volunteer to mentor (and learn) with different chavrussas.
One of my “mentors” a chabad girl whom I started learning Chumash (4-5 sessions) and she said she was multitasking (while we learnimg Chumash (From the rebbe’s Chumash which is new to me, I’ve done rashi, rambam but no chassidut).
I’m Orthodox so I don’t know what the acceptable practice is amongst Chabad.
However my black hat LOR told me that it is “ very bad” to learn torah without Kavana and just as a mental exercise so I should change to another subject unless she finds a time where she can be fully present. I understand that if she needs to stop and tend to her young 3 yr old kids, that is ok. But doing house chores not ok.
I was told I should either tell her to pick another time or subject that is not torah. But doing house shores while torah learning I should not allow that.
I am uncomfortable telling a mother that she should not be doing that ( it’s for her sake as well as mine) according to “gate of trust” that one should positively influence their surroundings if see an any issue.
Anyways, how should I approach this? Should I end? Tell her to pick another subject or time? I dont want to offend the girl. Is this ok for chabad ladies?
Please advise!
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singleagain
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Sun, Jul 07 2024, 7:33 am
I'm guessing this is over the phone and you can tell that she's washing dishes or something?
"I find it distracting to have different noises in the background. Can we find a time that is quiet and more conducive to learning?"
Or are you close distance wise to suggest meeting in person?
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amother
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Sun, Jul 07 2024, 7:37 am
| amother OP wrote: | BH I have the time volunteer to mentor (and learn) with different chavrussas.
One of my “mentors” a chabad girl whom I started learning Chumash (4-5 sessions) and she said she was multitasking (while we learnimg Chumash (From the rebbe’s Chumash which is new to me, I’ve done rashi, rambam but no chassidut).
I’m Orthodox so I don’t know what the acceptable practice is amongst Chabad.
However my black hat LOR told me that it is “ very bad” to learn torah without Kavana and just as a mental exercise so I should change to another subject unless she finds a time where she can be fully present. I understand that if she needs to stop and tend to her young 3 yr old kids, that is ok. But doing house chores not ok.
I was told I should either tell her to pick another time or subject that is not torah. But doing house shores while torah learning I should not allow that.
I am uncomfortable telling a mother that she should not be doing that ( it’s for her sake as well as mine) according to “gate of trust” that one should positively influence their surroundings if see an any issue.
Anyways, how should I approach this? Should I end? Tell her to pick another subject or time? I dont want to offend the girl. Is this ok for chabad ladies?
Please advise! |
I never never heard that you cant learn torah "without kavana". I recomend you check in with your rav again.
People all over listen to shiurim while multitasking, everyone! For women especially. Unlrss she's cleaning bathrooms or changing diapers what is the problem?
If its bothering you to have someone multitasking, because you feel its disrespectful to yoi, thst is s legitimate feeling, but then this lady is probably not a good match for you.
You can bring it up.
I wouldn't bring religion in to it though.
ETA im not chabad. Yeshivish. Nover heard this in my years in school or my several daughter's years. And you bet I was imultitasking often while they did homework or studied for tests. No one ever said dont multitask for Torahs sake
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amother
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Sun, Jul 07 2024, 7:47 am
| amother OP wrote: | BH I have the time volunteer to mentor (and learn) with different chavrussas.
One of my “mentors” a chabad girl whom I started learning Chumash (4-5 sessions) and she said she was multitasking (while we learnimg Chumash (From the rebbe’s Chumash which is new to me, I’ve done rashi, rambam but no chassidut).
I’m Orthodox so I don’t know what the acceptable practice is amongst Chabad.
However my black hat LOR told me that it is “ very bad” to learn torah without Kavana and just as a mental exercise so I should change to another subject unless she finds a time where she can be fully present. I understand that if she needs to stop and tend to her young 3 yr old kids, that is ok. But doing house chores not ok.
I was told I should either tell her to pick another time or subject that is not torah. But doing house shores while torah learning I should not allow that.
I am uncomfortable telling a mother that she should not be doing that ( it’s for her sake as well as mine) according to “gate of trust” that one should positively influence their surroundings if see an any issue.
Anyways, how should I approach this? Should I end? Tell her to pick another subject or time? I dont want to offend the girl. Is this ok for chabad ladies?
Please advise! |
Even if she is is doing other things while learning, that doesn't mean her intention for learning Torah is for mental exercise rather than lishma. Some people actually learn better if they are doing something else while learning.
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amother
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Sun, Jul 07 2024, 8:34 am
I hear you all. I also listen to shiurim all the time while multitasking.
And yes I learn better if I’m searching for words and using many books. But I’m concentrating on the subject.
However learning with someone who has no kavana is as if not fulfilling the mitzvah at all:
The Sefer Reishis Chochma, Shaar Hakedusha, Perek Vov paskens that one who learns Torah without kavana is not mekayem the mitzvah of Limud HaTorah. If he learns without kavana, it is considered as if he never learned. The Dvar Avraham quotes Reb Elchanan Wasserman as saying that it is possible for a person to have learned Torah and it would be considered as if he is not doing the Mitzvah if he has the kavana not to do the mitzvah.
For reasons that are sensitive for me I don’t want to be involved for learning torah while someone is cleaning the house or cooking I’m ok with watching kids as I do the same but that is in my communities opinion the only “pass women have when learning with a Chavrussa. I understand this will bring many hard feelings.
All I’m asking for is how should I handle this in a nice way without making her feel bad. When I’m reading and all of a sudden I ask can you read while I get my contacts she says she’s sorry but she’s cooking. I don’t learn to check a box, I learn because it’s my way to get close to Hashem.
While I know everyone has their oppinion im asking for advice on how to tell her without hurting or shaming or making her feel bad.
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amother
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Sun, Jul 07 2024, 8:36 am
I’m Chabad and never heard of can’t leant without kavanah.
I’d also be distracted by background noise.
Perhaps she’s looking into different sfarim as you go along ?
Kinda common.
I’d find a time that works.
Are you learning in Jnet?
I never signed
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amother
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Sun, Jul 07 2024, 8:44 am
What is the rav's source that it is wrong to multitask while learning? Plenty of people even men listen to a shiur while driving, never heard of anything wrong with it. As a previous poster said, multitasking doesn't mean it's a mental exercise as opposed to lishma. Anyway, even she's not learning lishma, chazal say mitoch sh'loh lishma bah lishma: even though learning for ulterior motives is not idea, ie for a mental exercise, if this is ones reason one should still learn while intending to improve and eventually they will grow to learn lishma.
ETA: somehow I missed your post where you explain.
| Quote: | | The Sefer Reishis Chochma, Shaar Hakedusha, Perek Vov paskens that one who learns Torah without kavana is not mekayem the mitzvah of Limud HaTorah. If he learns without kavana, it is considered as if he never learned. The Dvar Avraham quotes Reb Elchanan Wasserman as saying that it is possible for a person to have learned Torah and it would be considered as if he is not doing the Mitzvah if he has the kavana not to do the mitzvah. |
This does not sound like it's talking about multitasking at all honestly. Kavana means "intention". Intention has many levels, it's not all or nothing. How do you know what level of intention she has? How do you know her level of intention is not greater than yours even while she's cooking? Do you have in mind the entire time you're learning that you are learning in order to fulfill the commandment to learn Torah? To me it seems these sources are talking about someone who has no correct intention at all, ie it doesn't cross their mind at any point that they're learning to be mekayem the mitzvah.
I'm sure she has the minimal level of intention for her learning to be counted, but if you are concerned, you can start each session with a verbal declaration that you both say: "I am now going to learn Torah to fulfill Hashem's mitzvah of limud Torah." That should ensure the minimal kavana.
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amother
Fuchsia
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Sun, Jul 07 2024, 8:56 am
I don’t think it’s your place to tell her, unless it’s bothering you that she’s not focusing on what you’re saying or is making noise.
You could say, I see this might not be a good time for you because you seem to be busy. Is there a better time? She might get the hint.
The rav might not have the full picture. It’s really important to frame a shaila the right way.
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amother
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Sun, Jul 07 2024, 9:04 am
[quote="amother Snowflake"]What is the rav's source that it is wrong to multitask while learning? Plenty of people even men listen to a shiur while driving, never heard of anything wrong with it. As a previous poster said, multitasking doesn't mean it's a mental exercise as opposed to lishma. Anyway, even she's not learning lishma, chazal say mitoch sh'loh lishma bah lishma: even though learning for ulterior motives is not idea, ie for a mental exercise, if this is ones reason one should still learn while intending to improve and eventually they will grow to learn lishma.
Source : The Sefer Reishis Chochma, Shaar Hakedusha, Perek Vov paskens that one who learns Torah without kavana is not mekayem the mitzvah of Limud HaTorah. If he learns without kavana, it is considered as if he never learned. The Dvar Avraham quotes Reb Elchanan Wasserman as saying that it is possible for a person to have learned Torah and it would be considered as if he is not doing the Mitzvah if he has the kavana not to do the mitzvah.
There are many sources on this topic that made me want to not learn one on one torah. The cons outweigh the pros.
As I said above, listening to shiurim is different than learning Pasuk by pasuk.
Instead of judging, all I am asking is how to guide this in the correct direction. Please don’t take it personally.
Thanks
And thank you for the positive responses. I will ask for another time or if she wants to learn something else that is not the torah.
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amother
Starflower
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Sun, Jul 07 2024, 9:08 am
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If I’m listening to shiur or even just talking to a friend on the phone and doing nothing I have a hard time focusing and I get easily distracted. If I’m washing dishes or cooking I have a much easier time paying attention to what I’m listening to. Watching kids would actually be the most distracting and give me the least kavana.
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amother
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Sun, Jul 07 2024, 9:10 am
| amother Teal wrote: | I’m Chabad and never heard of can’t leant without kavanah.
I’d also be distracted by background noise.
Perhaps she’s looking into different sfarim as you go along ?
Kinda common.
Are you learning in Jnet?
I never signed |
I know. I am simply not comfortable with the situation, you are correct I’ll ask her to tell me a time she is fully available and I’ll work to find a time that works. Or offer to learn anything else but the Chumash.
You are correct, I will ask a time that works best. Thanks. I mentor a lady on JNET (amongst others) which is really rewarding they are in desperate need for tutors so I highly recommend signing up if you want to mentor.
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amother
Bellflower
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Sun, Jul 07 2024, 9:16 am
Doesn’t sound like you are a good match for her
Hope you each find a better match for yourselves
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amother
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Sun, Jul 07 2024, 9:26 am
| amother OP wrote: | I hear you all. I also listen to shiurim all the time while multitasking.
And yes I learn better if I’m searching for words and using many books. But I’m concentrating on the subject.
However learning with someone who has no kavana is as if not fulfilling the mitzvah at all:
The Sefer Reishis Chochma, Shaar Hakedusha, Perek Vov paskens that one who learns Torah without kavana is not mekayem the mitzvah of Limud HaTorah. If he learns without kavana, it is considered as if he never learned. The Dvar Avraham quotes Reb Elchanan Wasserman as saying that it is possible for a person to have learned Torah and it would be considered as if he is not doing the Mitzvah if he has the kavana not to do the mitzvah.
For reasons that are sensitive for me I don’t want to be involved for learning torah while someone is cleaning the house or cooking I’m ok with watching kids as I do the same but that is in my communities opinion the only “pass women have when learning with a Chavrussa. I understand this will bring many hard feelings.
All I’m asking for is how should I handle this in a nice way without making her feel bad. When I’m reading and all of a sudden I ask can you read while I get my contacts she says she’s sorry but she’s cooking. I don’t learn to check a box, I learn because it’s my way to get close to Hashem.
While I know everyone has their oppinion im asking for advice on how to tell her without hurting or shaming or making her feel bad. |
From your source, learning without kavanah means that they are not fulfilling the mitzvah of limmud torah and might not get the schar. However, you are mixing this up with the prohibition of learning Torah for the purpose of mental exercise. This is two separate issues. And a frum woman, who is a busy young mother, who is taking the time even to multitask and try to learn, is doing it because she was to add more Torah in her day. It's not assur. She's not learning to check a box. Respectfully, I think you are wrong in baselessly judging her intentions.
I do not think there is any way to say something to her nicely, because I do feel you are wrong in your judgements. I think you need to ask a serious shaila before saying anything to her.
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amother
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Sun, Jul 07 2024, 9:34 am
[quote="amother OP"] | amother Snowflake wrote: | What is the rav's source that it is wrong to multitask while learning? Plenty of people even men listen to a shiur while driving, never heard of anything wrong with it. As a previous poster said, multitasking doesn't mean it's a mental exercise as opposed to lishma. Anyway, even she's not learning lishma, chazal say mitoch sh'loh lishma bah lishma: even though learning for ulterior motives is not idea, ie for a mental exercise, if this is ones reason one should still learn while intending to improve and eventually they will grow to learn lishma.
Source : The Sefer Reishis Chochma, Shaar Hakedusha, Perek Vov paskens that one who learns Torah without kavana is not mekayem the mitzvah of Limud HaTorah. If he learns without kavana, it is considered as if he never learned. The Dvar Avraham quotes Reb Elchanan Wasserman as saying that it is possible for a person to have learned Torah and it would be considered as if he is not doing the Mitzvah if he has the kavana not to do the mitzvah.
There are many sources on this topic that made me want to not learn one on one torah. The cons outweigh the pros.
As I said above, listening to shiurim is different than learning Pasuk by pasuk.
Instead of judging, all I am asking is how to guide this in the correct direction. Please don’t take it personally.
Thanks
And thank you for the positive responses. I will ask for another time or if she wants to learn something else that is not the torah. |
Well maybe it’s for the men? Woman don’t have a chiyuv.
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amother
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Sun, Jul 07 2024, 9:36 am
[quote="amother OP"] | amother Snowflake wrote: | What is the rav's source that it is wrong to multitask while learning? Plenty of people even men listen to a shiur while driving, never heard of anything wrong with it. As a previous poster said, multitasking doesn't mean it's a mental exercise as opposed to lishma. Anyway, even she's not learning lishma, chazal say mitoch sh'loh lishma bah lishma: even though learning for ulterior motives is not idea, ie for a mental exercise, if this is ones reason one should still learn while intending to improve and eventually they will grow to learn lishma.
Source : The Sefer Reishis Chochma, Shaar Hakedusha, Perek Vov paskens that one who learns Torah without kavana is not mekayem the mitzvah of Limud HaTorah. If he learns without kavana, it is considered as if he never learned. The Dvar Avraham quotes Reb Elchanan Wasserman as saying that it is possible for a person to have learned Torah and it would be considered as if he is not doing the Mitzvah if he has the kavana not to do the mitzvah.
There are many sources on this topic that made me want to not learn one on one torah. The cons outweigh the pros.
As I said above, listening to shiurim is different than learning Pasuk by pasuk.
Instead of judging, all I am asking is how to guide this in the correct direction. Please don’t take it personally.
Thanks
And thank you for the positive responses. I will ask for another time or if she wants to learn something else that is not the torah. |
Sorry, I only saw your sources after my post, but I edited it before seeing this post. I'm not taking it personally at all, but I do believe you are likely misunderstanding these sources. What do you believe "kavana" means, as it is the key word here. The source I bolded definitely does not apply here, as I'm sure she's not having kavana to specifically not do the mitzvah.
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amother
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Sun, Jul 07 2024, 9:44 am
| Quote: | | As I said above, listening to shiurim is different than learning Pasuk by pasuk. |
I'm not understanding why the sources you brought apply to learning by pasuk but not by shiurim?
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amother
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Sun, Jul 07 2024, 9:45 am
| amother Snowflake wrote: | | Quote: | | As I said above, listening to shiurim is different than learning Pasuk by pasuk. |
I'm not understanding why the sources you brought apply to learning by pasuk but not by shiurim? |
My guess is: learning pasuk by pasuk you’re actually learning. And listening to a shuir you aren’t really “learning”
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amother
Junglegreen
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Sun, Jul 07 2024, 10:57 am
I would suggest that you tell her that you realize learning chumush needs full focus and could those lessons be done over zoom instead of phone.
That's it.
Don't say anything else.
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amother
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Sun, Jul 07 2024, 11:02 am
| amother Snowflake wrote: | What is the rav's source that it is wrong to multitask while learning?
ETA: somehow I missed your post where you explain.
| Quote: | | The Sefer Reishis Chochma, Shaar Hakedusha, Perek Vov paskens that one who learns Torah without kavana is not mekayem the mitzvah of Limud HaTorah. If he learns without kavana, it is considered as if he never learned. The Dvar Avraham quotes Reb Elchanan Wasserman as saying that it is possible for a person to have learned Torah and it would be considered as if he is not doing the Mitzvah if he has the kavana not to do the mitzvah. |
This does not sound like it's talking about multitasking at all honestly. Kavana means "intention". Intention has many levels, it's not all or nothing. How do you know what level of intention she has? How do you know her level of intention is not greater than yours even while she's cooking? Do you have in mind the entire time you're learning that you are learning in order to fulfill the commandment to learn Torah? To me it seems these sources are talking about someone who has no correct intention at all, ie it doesn't cross their mind at any point that they're learning to be mekayem the mitzvah.
I'm sure she has the minimal level of intention for her learning to be counted, but if you are concerned, you can start each session with a verbal declaration that you both say: "I am now going to learn Torah to fulfill Hashem's mitzvah of limud Torah." That should ensure the minimal kavana. |
That is a good idea, I will try that and ask her if there is a time she is able to sit and read the text vs -I am sorry I was not reading with you" which has happened multiple times and she said she was doing something else- she may have the correct intention, I have no idea if she does, and so I am still trying to give her the benefit of the doubt.
When two people learn together with Kavana according to the baal haturim, the schehina is present. however not doing brachot and simply learning for the sake of mental exercise is why we lost the land of israel...
I do not believe Hashem pairs people randomly, I believe there is a reason why she was paired with me. It may be so that I learn something I don't know.
I appreciate all the comments, positive and negative, I know this is a sensitive subject, and I have learned with the same people for over 7 years, and now ma adding new ones. It has never been an issue. I am reading all the comments so that I can decide how to steer the situation. I am not ready to give up.
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amother
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Sun, Jul 07 2024, 11:03 am
| amother Junglegreen wrote: | I would suggest that you tell her that you realize learning chumush needs full focus and could those lessons be done over zoom instead of phone.
That's it.
Don't say anything else. |
Great Idea! thank you
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