S/o kollel ppl should live simply

amother

Junglegreen

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 4:40 pm

amother Snapdragon wrote:

But isn't this what some tzedakah organizations do for kollel support? Collect tzedaka from low/middle income families and then use those funds to provide higher living standards for kollel members. Those living standards are higher than the low-middle income living standards.

A 500$ a month “paycheck” from Kollel doesn’t pay for designer clothes and home renovations. People sound a little confused.

amother

DarkPurple

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 4:52 pm

I'm a kollel wife for almost 9 years. I don't buy luxuries and don't have cleaning help. I work as much as I can (out of the house from 8 to 3). Yes, I get clothing gift cards. You would laugh if you saw me trying to get the most for the money it's worth. I buy clothes at the end of the season when it's very cheap, from Walmart, and use hand me downs. So I use the coupons for.... Uniforms! They never go on sale and I need them. Uniforms cost about 5 to 8 times the price I spend on my kids regular clothes. I've gotten tzitzis too etc. I try to stretch it as far as I can. I dont walk into the store and buy a 2 year old an 80 dollar outfit.

Bnei Berak 10

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 5:18 pm

amother DarkPurple wrote:

That's called being thrifty Flower

Bnei Berak 10

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 5:29 pm

amother Oldlace wrote:

Why do I never hear this discussion when the working guy who’s up to learn at 5 am and is also super successful is discussed?
Somehow if he’s a lawyer raking it in this discussion of living luxuriously is never mentioned.
I’m not saying he’s not focused on ruchnius, just somehow the point is never mentioned next to the strong comments about how he can be just as torahdik as the kollel guy.
(And that a doctor isn’t even allowed to charge for his services, and that it is considered something for the klal that needs a halachic workaround is certainly not brought up).

That being said, I agree that what’s the focus is a great point.

Noblesse oblige. Being held in higher esteem comes with a responsibility. You will be held in high esteem. You will also be judged harsher. More is expected of you.

Bnei Berak 10

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 5:33 pm

amother Peachpuff wrote:

I think there is an issue with the attitude of many in kollel. Kollel has become a lifestyle at this point. In my opinion, many people in kollel are not learning seriously and should be working to fulfill their kesuba.

I was at a very very yeshivish cousin's wedding right before "yeshivah week" and they were all discussing their vacation plans. They asked my husband his plans and guess what, he works and isn't just entitled to a vacation.

I think kollel people should be taking kollel as seriously as they would a job. (Going every day on time, no matter what etc.)

When all these issues are combined with the spending it just feels off to me. It feels more like a lifestyle than actually being machshiv Torah.

Kollel men should take it far more seriously than a job. The whole family life should breathe Torah values.

amother

Eggshell

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 5:40 pm

amother OP wrote:

Big yeshivos like the mir in EY definitely do not give stipends… I’ve never gotten a discount or any other benefit.

we got a stipend when my husband was learning in the Mir...I believe it was 750 NIS, which was a tremendous amount of money for us at that time!

amother

Junglegreen

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 5:45 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Noblesse oblige. Being held in higher esteem comes with a responsibility. You will be held in high esteem. You will also be judged harsher. More is expected of you.

This is something someone can say about themselves. This isn’t something you can say about others.
Saying this about yourself = responsible
Saying about others = judgmental or jealous

amother

Navyblue

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 5:45 pm

amother Peachpuff wrote:

I agree. I think the women should fulfil the kesubah as well as defined in the mishna. Spinning wool for hours on end each day in exchange for the food her husband gives her. Washing his feet and face daily. Pouring and handing him his glass every time he would like a drink. Asking his permission before leaving the house which he should grant her on occasion. If he is fulfilling his kesuba obligations so should she.

amother

Junglegreen

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 5:47 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Kollel men should take it far more seriously than a job. The whole family life should breathe Torah values.

There are people that disagree with you. But you are entitled to your opinion.
Everyone can give their tzeddaka where they want to. No one’s forcing you to give to Kollel learning but you can tell others where to give.

amother

Junglegreen

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 5:48 pm

amother Navyblue wrote:

amother

Snapdragon

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 5:48 pm

amother Navyblue wrote:

That is not part of the kesuba. The kesuba is a one way contractual agreement from husband to wife. The wife is not going I to contract with the stuff in the mishnah.

And if you're following the mishnah, we shouldn't cherry pick. The man should first be required to get a house, a job and then lastly the wife. If he takes the wife first, he is not following the mishnah either.

amother

DarkRed

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 5:53 pm

amother Navyblue wrote:

Brb. Gonna go tell my husband that I'm going to give up my high-earning job to spin wool all day and rub his face and feet with body wash. He'll be thrilled no doubt.

amother

Navyblue

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 5:59 pm

amother Snapdragon wrote:

That is not part of the kesuba. The kesuba is a one way contractual agreement from husband to wife. The wife is not going I to contract with the stuff in the mishnah.

Of course it is. The kesubah says he will feed and cloth her as per the halachos that are enumerated in the mishna. Those halachos clearly spell out the reciprocal obligations she undertakes in exchange for being fed, clothed, and sheltered, and include the above obligations.

amother

Navyblue

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 6:06 pm

Once we are talking Halacha, the Aruch Hashulchan, one of the foremost poskim in recent times does not say a husbands is shirking his halachic kesuba obligations if his wife agrees to work so he can learn. On the contrary he says:
האשה אינה חייבת ללמד את בנה תורה. ומכל מקום אם עוזרת לבנה או לבעלה שיעסקו בתורה – חולקת שכר בהדייהו. וגדולה הבטחה שהבטיחן הקדוש ברוך הוא לנשים יותר מהאנשים (ברכות יז א), שנאמר (ישעיה לב ט): "נשים שאננות קומנה שמענה קולי, בנות בוטחות האזנה אמרתי". ואמר ליה רב לרבי חייא: נשים במאי זכיין? באקרויי בנייהו לבי כנישתא, ובאתנויי גוברייהו בי רבנן, ונטרן לגברייהו עד דאתו מבי רבנן, עיין שם.
ובאמת אלו הנשים התומכות ידי בעליהן וידי בניהן שילמדו תורה – זכותן גדול מאוד, ושכרן הרבה מאוד. וכל שכן אותן הנשים העוסקות בפרנסה, למען שיוכלו בעליהן לישב על התורה, עליהן נאמר: "אשת חיל מי ימצא", ו"עוז והדר לבושה ותשחק ליום אחרון", ו"אשה יראת ה' היא תתהלל". ואוכלת פירותיה בעולם הזה, והקרן קיימת לה לעולם הבא

He says the posuk of Eishes Chayil is said specifically about a woman who works so her husband can sit and learn.

amother

Heather

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 7:27 pm

I don't believe anyone should be wearing rags. I don't think anyone should just eat bread and water.

But when local community programs and help are only given to "kollel needy people" and not anyone who needs, and those "kollel needy people" are wearing designer, taking vacations, going to Israel for a few weeks in the summer, new outfits every YT with matching bows and socks, name brand thousand dollar strollers.... AND look down on anyone not doing the same-- we have an issue. And yes, while we shouldn't feel jealous or resentful it is hard when we can barely afford new socks. Not designer or frum brand socks. Amazon and walmart specials.
But no one is giving us discount cards to get my kids socks or tzizis. 😒

It's about priorities. There are dozens of programs for one group and they apparently aren't scrounging for pennies to buy socks. But when legitimately people think twice for socks what is so wrong with our community?
Some get $150 baby outfits bought on tzeddakah and others who have holes in their socks.

amother

Junglegreen

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 7:33 pm

amother Heather wrote:

There are plenty of Kollel needy people. There are some kollel people who have support or their wives make a lot.
The kollel needy people shouldn’t not get because some people are jealous of the people who are in kollel and aren’t needy.

What’s wrong with our generation Can't Believe It

We want all kollel people to be poor so we can feel better about ourselves.

amother

Slategray

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 7:45 pm

amother Heather wrote:

That doesn’t happen in Lakewood though. I’m not sure where it does happen but it doesn’t happen here. The tzedakkos look at your need not at your kollel status. (Unless it’s a kollel specific fund but there are enough funds that aren’t kollel specific)

amother

Navyblue

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 7:59 pm

amother Heather wrote:

those "kollel needy people" are wearing designer, taking vacations, going to Israel for a few weeks in the summer, new outfits every YT with matching bows and socks, name brand thousand dollar strollers.... AND look down on anyone not doing the same-- we have an issue..

You are describing the tiniest minority of kollel families as if your description is relevant to the majority. What percent of kollel families go to Israel for weeks in the summer, buy name brand thousand dollar strollers, all while lining up for local tzedaka handouts?

You may as well talk about “those orthodox parents who abusively beat their kids,” or “those frum men who run around town philandering with women” or some other such absurd generalization.

The overwhelming majority of kollel families who take help can only dream of a family summer in Israel or other such luxuries. They are lucky not to end each month in the red and keep the utilities from being shut off, and they certainly do not look down on others who are poor. Shame on you! You were motzi Shem rah on an entire class of people and owe them an apology. This is classic motzi Shem Rah on an entire group or class of people as discussed in the Chafetz Chaim’s Sefer shmiras halashon and is a serious aveira, even when accurate; all the more so when the generalization is baseless, like yours.