DH law profession | Imamother

amother

↑ Tulip ↓

Thu, Dec 19 2024, 12:53 pm

amother OP wrote:

What does that even mean.? Surely not everyone can make partner. What do all those passed over then do?

I worked in a Wall Street firm for a few years after law school and the major Wall Street firms are the model for every "big firm" structure. And they are called Wall Street firms even though many have relocated all their offices to midtown Very Happy

Typically the first year class will have 30 associates hired. After about the second year the weeding out starts and people are advised to start looking if it is clear they aren't partner material. By the time the class has reached partnership possibility the class is significantly smaller and so there aren't really a lot of people at that level who has stuck it out and don't make partner - there might be some but for the most part people have taken the hint and left and/or realized big law wasn't for them and have left.

Things might have changed but when I worked at a Big Law firm, they generally tried to provide associates with a soft landing. I don't think it was entirely altruistic as they didn't want to get a bad reputation of being completely ruthless. Many associates who have worked for five years or so wind up going in-house with clients of the firm. Law firms actually like this kind of symbiosis as it is likely that the ex associate will continue the relationship especially if they weren't "screwed" by the law firm but given a soft departure so they landed a job as they were give lots of time.

Sometimes associates will go to specific agencies when they have acquired expertise. So theoretically one could get expertise in SEC/Merger law and work for the government for a few years. Then with that kind of real insider expertise one could get a partnership opportunity at a firm that needs that expertise. It might not be a Big Law firm but it would still be very lucrative.

amother

↑ DarkCyan

Thu, Dec 19 2024, 12:55 pm

Keep in mind, all these things are true about making partner but if you walk in with a yarmulka you need to know that the bar is even higher. That’s just the reality. It’s more difficult to fraternize, you’re not available 24/7, it’s really very very unusual to make it, especially in white shoe biglaw. And it’s not antinsemitic -my dh took worse from the Jewish lawyers-at the end of the day you have less to offer hours-wise and socially, which is a huge part of the business.

amother

↑ Aconite ↓

Thu, Dec 19 2024, 1:09 pm

amother Tulip wrote:

Also being in the right department at the right time is a factor. If your department has enough partners and/or there are more promising associates the class below, you won't make partner.

Agree, these are some of the many factors outside an associate's control.

Quote:

And bringing in clients is a significant factor in terms of partnership. All things being equal a "rainmaker" has a better job at partnership than a reliable hardworking attorney with no network or connections.

At the time that an associate is being assessed for promotion to partner, they are typically not expected to already be bringing in any significant clients. They're being assessed on whether they have good relationships with their partners' clients and whether they are personable enough, business minded enough, and networking enough to have high potential to bring in clients in the future. To get to such a place, being reliable and hardworking is an absolute minimum these days. Not sufficient but absolutely necessary. No partner will want to facilitate client relationships for a flaky, slow-to-respond associate with sloppy emails and work product. I have never seen anyone flaky or sloppy build client relationships purely on personal charm. I'm sure it has happened somewhere, but it must be rare these days.

amother

↑ Tulip ↓

Thu, Dec 19 2024, 1:21 pm

amother Aconite wrote:

Not disagreeing but I think that it is a bit like chicken and egg or vaguely like that.

No associate is going to get to be a Senior Associate without having significant client contact with clients providing significant positive feedback. The associate would have been told politely earlier to start looking.

However in many cases to get a Partnership one needs to have the ability to generate income in the form of clients.

There are certain areas in which rainmaking is less important because the skills of the attorney are so specialized. In my experience Patent Law and Tax Law fall into these categories. Tax Law especially so because it is generally a support department for the broader Corporate clients.

My Wall Street firm had a Trusts & Estates Department which was a bit of a hoot for me since I was a fan of the Louis Auchincloss and Edith Wharton novels and there they were - in the flesh. I did a rotation in my first year and was delighted to find that the Social Register was actually a real book and that the partners in that department used it as their phone book since anyone they would need to contact was in that book. LOL

The partners were all old New York money.

mha3484 ↓

Thu, Dec 19 2024, 1:33 pm

amother Tulip wrote:

The partners were all old New York money.

My grandmothers husband was a trusts and estates attorney for six decades. He only made it big when his client who was known to lawyer shop every year passed away and he got to execute the estate. He spent years middling along before that. He and my grandmother took clients out to dinner multiple times a week, he went to a lot of funerals and honestly had a certain desire to social climb. I cant see how a frum person fits into that world very well.

amother

↑ Tulip

Thu, Dec 19 2024, 1:52 pm

mha3484 wrote:

Forget about frum 😂😂😂 At the White shoe law firms Trusts & Estates were strictly for WASPS and WASPS with generational ties who were members of Piping Rock and the Maidstone.

There is now obviously money to be made from new money and money from other nationalities but the traditional Wall Street firms were bastions of WASP power. A few Jewish firms like Paul Weiss or Wachtell but they were generally not considered to be white shoe back in the day.

amother

↑ Aconite ↓

Thu, Dec 19 2024, 1:53 pm

amother Tulip wrote:

Yup, I think we are on the same page.

amother

↑ Aconite

Thu, Dec 19 2024, 1:56 pm

amother Springgreen wrote:

Nobody talking about the 60-80 hour plus workweeks?

I assume that's because we assume OP and her husband already know about the hours and are willing to give that aspect a shot. The quantity of work is not the only issue, it is the unpredictability and often the anxiety that goes along with it also. That all contributes to the voluntary turnover.

↑ mha3484

Thu, Dec 19 2024, 2:04 pm

To add to what I said. The majority of my very large family are lawyers. Some left the profession. One uncle started out as in house counsel for a restaurant company and now runs the whole company. Another uncle works in real estate, one in private banking (he's a bigger social climber then his father so that worked out well for him) my aunt is chief counsel for a major hospital. A cousin is in house attorney for a real estate company.

The ones that stayed in big law and made partner worked incredible hours, are big extroverts and are not hampered by shabbos and kashrus. So they do a lot of entertaining clients, golf, restaurants, going to the right events. Socializing with the right people is half the job.

amother

↑ Blueberry

Thu, Dec 19 2024, 2:39 pm

amother OP wrote:

What does that even mean.? Surely not everyone can make partner. What do all those passed over then do?

My husband worked in one of the most notorious biglaw firms. When 2nd and 3rd year associates weren’t keeping up with partner’s expectations they would be given notice that they should start looking for something else. Many of them went to less cut throat big law places some in house. It should be said that someone that survived big law for a few years or made it to year 7 or 8 probably has an incredible skill set, is very smart, and will easily find a job. Not everyone can make it in big law but that doesn’t mean your career is over.

We also know someone that ending up switching to one of the big 4 accounting firms and made partner there instead of doing counsel in biglaw. Very niche tax lawyer.