When the sister is the bully

amother

OP ↓

Sun, Oct 13 2024, 8:43 am

Please help me parent my daughters!!
I have two daughters, the older one is highly emotionally volatile. I have tried years of therapy and meds and nothing has helped and at this point she is refusing all intervention. She is all nice and wonderful in public but at home she is obnoxious, manipulative, has meltdowns and temper tantrums and is really mean to her younger sister.
Her younger sister has HFA and ADHD, she is really sweet but definitely different. She needs a lot of help and is "embarrassing" to her older sister. The older sister bullies her all the time. She calls her names and tells her she has issues and problems and picks on every insecurity and teases her on them. Intentionally mean.
Without using terms like "no tolerance" or "she cannot get away with" or "not acceptable" please tell me what to do about this. It is unacceptable to me, I don't have a tolerance for it, but quite frankly I have no idea how to stop this behavior. I am out of ideas.
I know my older daughter needs help but she is refusing any.

amother

Indigo ↓

Sun, Oct 13 2024, 8:58 am

amother OP wrote:

It sounds like the older daughter possibility might not be getting validation for who she is and compassion what she is going through as a person, outside of this sister.

Is there any way you can find a coach to guide you through building a separate relationship with older daughter, just based off the two of you? See if that builds her up.

amother

Tomato

Sun, Oct 13 2024, 9:06 am

How old are they?

If they are old enough for this, I'd suggest trying to keep them separate as much as possible. Think of the times throughout the day that the biggest issues happen, and problem solve how to keep them separate during those times. Like if dinnertime is a big problem, and you all eat together, maybe make a rotation where one of the girls started fifteen minutes before the rest of the family and eats with them for half the time, and then she leaves and her sister joins for the second half of dinner (and continues after they're done, if necessary). If it's in the morning, see if you can schedule things so that one girl is upstairs getting ready while the other eats breakfast and does things downstairs and then they switch.

I know this sounds like overkill, to run your schedules around keeping them apart. I know it doesn't seem like the way a normal family runs. BUT as someone who has dealt with something similar (just with two boys, and physical attacks instead of verbal/emotional ones), I wish I had done something like this. By being reactive instead of proactive--and yes, I was trying to protect him as much as possible!--there were still so many times that my younger son got attacked while my back was turned, or before I could stop it. He now has anxiety and certain other issues that I feel so guilty about.

The good news is that my older son is now an older teen, and BH things are SO much better now. I can't say they're best friends, and the younger one is still very cautious and tentative around the older one, but there have been no physical attacks and virtually no verbal ones for several years though, and I'll occasionally see them bonding over something pareve. This is HUGE. And my older one is in a much better place.

(A book that you might find helpful is The Explosive Child. I honestly don't like it for most issues; I think it takes away a parent's authority in a way that doesn't seem right to me. But for this issue, I think the concept in the book called "Plan C" might be helpful.)

amother

Ghostwhite

Sun, Oct 13 2024, 9:13 am

I wish I had answers for you. Yes, validation is important. But here is the reality- programs for kids who need extra help specifically will not put kids like your older and your younger together, because they know that it tends to turn into this. Even without the sibling relationship, which is huge, there is something about the HFA type that inherently triggers your older's type. As a parent, it's a nightmare. The best advice I have if it's at all possible is to room them on different floors.

Re getting the older one help, I understand this. My best advice is to go in from the side. If she has an OT issue that she would recognize and agree with, find a good OT who does work on integration and emotional regulation and have her work on both. If she's artistic, think about art therapy. And feel free to tell her it's something to try to help her deal worh having an HFA sister. If she agrees, she's in for that, and you have an in. I wouldn't go straight therapy- only activities based.

And think hard and maybe ask the school to see if she may have adhd too, in a different form. You can have these regulation symptoms on their own, but they're also a common part of adhd. She may need help there and acknowledge. And she may need meds, which many kids are more likely to take for adhd than to do therapy, including the regulation meds vs stimulants.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sun, Oct 13 2024, 9:16 am

Ok this has been going on for years, I have tried so many things, what you're hearing in my post isn't a lack of empathy but me being fed up.
The older one has so much more going on in her life, she gets tons of special attention, she gets lots of extra privileges and things. She has tons of friends and does great in school. I do know that having a sister who is weird (as she calls it) is hard, that's why I have given her therapy and followed the advice of the therapists. It's not easy especially as a preteen/teen. But it's been years of this. Her sister is not changing, she has ASD and ADHD, she isn't becoming "normal" (again her words) any time soon. Honestly I'm afraid I'm at fault for investing so much into the older daughter by recognizing that this bullying is coming from pain and not enough to protect my younger daughter who is now exhibiting the affects of someone living with long term bullying. I don't know how to protect the younger one.
I dont know how to help my older one.
I'm just trying my best and after years of trying everything I can think of and the therapist can think of, I'm asking if anyone here has good advice.

Yes I do plan C as much as I could but they live in the same house and go to the same school (for now). I send my older one to overnight even though we cannot afford it because it's an acceptable way to separate their living situations.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sun, Oct 13 2024, 9:18 am

amother Ghostwhite wrote:

I am sure she has ADHD and anxiety but she refuses to do anything about it. She won't take meds or go to any form of therapy.

amother

Vanilla ↓

Sun, Oct 13 2024, 10:37 am

amother OP wrote:

I am sure she has ADHD and anxiety but she refuses to do anything about it. She won't take meds or go to any form of therapy.

I've had a situation like this although less so because only the older one had issues not the younger one.

It actually sounds to me like the older one may also have HFASD and in order for her to understand what is wrong with her behavior you need to speak to her in ASD language. It often shows up this way in girls where they manage to fit in in a social setting but not in a home setting.

Can your younger daughter's therapist advise you in how to set up a system which works on this?

I would go with very simple black and white rules with clear consequences in written form.

I disagree with posters who feel you are not being empathetic enough. I would feel your empathy is hard for her to understand and she feels she has a "right" to behave that way. That is an ASD thinking mechanism. I would feel that she needs strong, strong boundaries.

Let's turn to you - you're a great mother dealing with a tough situation. The fact that your younger daughter is suffering is not your fault. She has been dealt this situation, as have you, as has her older sister. Don't blame yourself.

amother

↑ Indigo

Sun, Oct 13 2024, 10:39 am

amother OP wrote:

The older one has privileges and friends and good grades but these are all outside positives and not deep connection and empathy on her own without outside influences.

amother

↑ Vanilla

Sun, Oct 13 2024, 10:42 am

Another coping mechanism often seen with HFASD is blaming everyone and everything when things don't work out. If her life is hard, she blames her sister. Or her school. Or her parents. Or her friends. Or her pajamas. No matter what, x should equal y. If it doesn't, it's because z has interfered.

Sit her down and tell her straight. This is your life. Noone can change it. The only thing you can change is you. Stop blaming your sister for things that are uncomfortable and realise that only you can make change by changing your reaction.

Start refusing to accept excuses. She has to take responsibility for her behavior, whether she is anxious, has ADHD, a "weird" sister, a stressed out mother or anything else. Be understanding but clear. You didn't learn for a test? True, your sister was making weird noises. Could you have gone to a different room? Yes, take responsibility. Your friends don't want to come to your house? True, your sister was around. Could you go with them to your room? Yes. So it's not about your sister.

puzzle

Sun, Oct 13 2024, 10:45 am

amother OP wrote:

Can you list some of the things you've tried so far, as well as what worked/didn't work about them?

mha3484

Sun, Oct 13 2024, 11:02 am

I agree with amother vanilla. At a certain age I think we do our kids no favors if we let them wallow in self pity and victimhood. We all get aspects of our life we would rather not have and we have to learn to move past it. Its the biggest gift we can give them.

My situation is the reverse in that my oldest never had an easy time socially and emotionally and his next sibling is 4 years younger. That sibling has another 2 years younger so they have each other and the oldest is on his own. He definitely gets more stuff and more leeway but he knows it can disappear tomorrow if he treats others poorly. In our house how you treat others is the number one priority.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sun, Oct 13 2024, 11:29 am

I also said she gets plenty of attention and empathy, you just skipped it out of your list.

We also did an intervention style talk with the older one that this is her life and she needs to take responsibility for it. She can't be mean, that's on her.

She doesn't blame others for things, I have no reason to think she has ASD. Unfortunately I have other kids with ASD of both genders so I am well versed in it. She most likely has ADHD and struggles with emotional regulation and anxiety.
She doesn't blame her problems on her sister, she is embarrassed of her and she bullies her.

Weve tried:
Medications
Therapy
Group therapy (DBT)
Big sister kind of arrangement
Extra extra curricular activities - growing her talents and give her other social experiences
Extra time with each parent
More responsibilities and less responsibilities
Discussions and asking her for input
Consequences and strong boundaries

amother

↑ Bluebell

Sun, Oct 13 2024, 11:33 am

amother OP wrote:

I strongly urge you to go for parenting therapy

amother

Chestnut ↓

Sun, Oct 13 2024, 11:54 am

amother OP wrote:

What were the results of the discussions and asking for her input?

What consequences and boundaries did you enforce and what were the results?

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sun, Oct 13 2024, 12:15 pm

amother Chestnut wrote:

What were the results of the discussions and asking for her input?

What consequences and boundaries did you enforce and what were the results?

She understood that she was being mean and hurting her sister and that bullying her isn't helping anything but shes just so embarrassed, she says these things either out of frustration from her sister or because she wants to show that she isn't associated with her, that she also thinks the younger sister is weird.

Consequences were computer related or needing to be away from others related.

amother

↑ Chestnut ↓

Sun, Oct 13 2024, 12:18 pm

amother OP wrote:

So what were the proposed solutions and how did they play out? Did any of them work even a little?

How did she react to the consequences and did they have any affect on her behavior?