Kicking someone out of your seat

amother

↑ Dimgray

Mon, Oct 07 2024, 11:14 am

Ruchel wrote:

The pregnant woman is one of the exceptions... If there was NOWHERE ELSE to sit I might let her there. But see. I'd also be very very angry to pay hundreds?? And stand. I would probably consider this money tzedaka though so ultimately someone would get less...

We asked our Rav and our seats cannot be paid with Maaser money, so I’d be very upset to pay close to $400 for a seat and not be able to use it. (It’s I think $250 for my husband and $120 for a seat in the women’s section)

watergirl

Mon, Oct 07 2024, 11:29 am

Wires get crossed in threads like this because as I've learned from this site, different communities have different concepts of what it means to buy a seat for RH and YK.

There are apparently some shuls out there in which one may purchase a seat for the entire year; that seat will have the owner's name on a plaque or whatever, and it's their seat all year. Even if they live in Boca and buy a seat in Flatbush, it's their seat. And people get frustrated, as I've learned on this site, when the owner lives in Boca but purchased a prime seat, whatever that means, and never goes to the Flatbush shul so the seat is sitting empty most of the time.

Then, there are RH and YK seats. My entire life, even before I was frum, one had to purchase seats. Sometimes a shul membership came with two seats, sometimes not. But you'd have to pay whatever price for the seat and then there is a seating chart showing where you sit for those days only.

I've been in shuls where there are extra free seats, and in shuls where no seat = standing.

BH my shul now has a mix of seats spread throughout the entire shul and many in the back of empty seats, and a designated man and women who are marked clearly on the seating chart, who is like a "gabbai" of seats, so if you can't tell which are the open seats by looking at the chart or if you need help, they will help you find a seat.

Every shul I've ever been at is also amazing at working with you, so if it's assigned seating only, no one is turned away, you just have to call the shul office and tell them what you can afford. I've paid $1 before.

But these threads is one of the major areas of the site where people who don't know what person A is referring to, offers input that is not aligned with what person B is talking about.

↑ Elfrida

Mon, Oct 07 2024, 11:35 am

amother Plum wrote:

But what a waste of that seat (especially since we generally stand at the end of Neilah). It would be far better to say that one may sit in another's seat as long as they get up when asked.

I think that sitting or standing isn't so much the issue. It's still a reserved place, and she knew it would be waiting for her. I don't consider half the money for my seat wasted if I'm standing up half the day!

If someone else was in your seat and you came five minutes before the end of Ne'ilah, would you really ask her to move at that point?

I don't know whether she planned only to come to shul those few minutes, or if something happened to prevent her coming earlier. But she had the security of knowing that whatever time she came, her seat would be waiting and she would be able to sit down (or stand up!) with no hesitations and no distractions.

Women who plan to come only for tekiyos or only for the end of Ne'ilah don't always book a seat. They come for those few minutes and cluster round the doors, but they don't take someone else's place. There are no spare chairs. Everyone who comes there, knows that. The gaba'im add seats in the women's section according to how many seats are booked. That is the reason they are so strict about not taking someone else's seat.

(Incidentally, I'm not a member there. I just buy a seat for the Yamim Noraim. During corona they didn't sell seats to non-members, to allow for distance between people. I had to find a different minyan that year, as did many other people. No one without a seat went there that year, either.)

amother

Amber

Mon, Oct 07 2024, 9:40 pm

You can ask your Rav, but I think that for RH &YK seats that were bought or came with paid membership, if you see someone seating in your seat you should either fully fargin your seat to them ( like there are tons of other empty seats or you want to seat in the back, or some other reason why you do not mind them using your seat). Or you should nicely ask them for your seat ( most of the time just approaching your seat , smiling , and saying something like sorry I have to bother you would get them to move on their own). I think it is very problematic if you are upset at the person seating in your seat and DID NOT asked her to move.

amother

Indigo ↓

Mon, Oct 07 2024, 9:58 pm

Just to put a spin on things...
I went to my seat on RH. Someone else was in it. Ends up she has the exact same name!! Think Friedman or Weiss... they don't come to the shul often so the secretary probably didn't think that there were two with the same name. I am the "regular" so knew it was my seat- I go every Shabbos. We laughed about it and I found a seat- a friend I knew closely so when she came I jumped up. Then I asked the rebetzin and she said the seat next to my friend never shows so sit there.

For The next day I asked my friend if it was OK what I did and she said that she wasn't going to that minyan for day 2 so I could enjoy her seat.

In prior years people who didn't buy seats took my seat. I was annoyed and found somewhere else to sit. If there was no other place I would have gently asked. Honestly it is chutzpah to not reserve at my shul. They put it on the flyer that money is not a reason to not reserve. Just reserve so they could put out more seats. There were years we didn't pay but got seats. And other years we sponsored something.

↑ Chayalle

Mon, Oct 07 2024, 10:13 pm

amother Indigo wrote:

LOL that's hysterical. Reminds me of the time my aunt's sister sat at our table at a wedding. She and my sister have the same name! She was wondering why she was seated with "the other" side but she's great fun and a sport. We just asked the waiter to set another seat when my sister showed up and we realized.....

singleagain

Mon, Oct 07 2024, 10:19 pm

Chayalle wrote:

you just reminded me that I had a co-worker who has the same name as a sister in law (they are married to brothers) same first and last name... And were pregnant at the same time. She told me there was more than once the doctors mixed them up

amother

Amaryllis

Mon, Oct 07 2024, 10:23 pm

My shul charges for the seats, and there is no free ones available. there simply isn't room for free seats and it is a way for the shul to make money. If someone was sitting in my seat, I would politely ask them to move. and besides, why would you sit in a seat without asking permission? Especially on the Yomim Noraim. It is Genavah. It might be uncomfortable for someone to have ask someone to move from their seat, especially if they are older. But there are name tags on the chairs for a reason and unless you know for sure the lady is not coming to shul, others have no business sitting in another persons chair, even to daven.

amother

↑ Indigo

Mon, Oct 07 2024, 11:46 pm

Chayalle wrote:

What's even better is our first names are the same too! She typically goes by a nickname but it was a good laugh.

Being DLZ won't work for everyone but it did here !

amother

Feverfew

Tue, Oct 08 2024, 12:23 am

amother Indigo wrote:

When I was in seminary my cousins had two seats at a certain large Yeshiva's Ezras Nashim and told me that I and my friend were welcome to use them, as my cousin wasn't going to get there. They have a very common last name, and the 1st names weren't on there. So there was a set of a bunch of seats in one row with that name, and a pair of seats in another row with said name. So knowing that my cousin had a pair of seats, we sat in the pair. At some point someone came over to us and said that she and her sister always sat there but they have other seats that we could sit in. I didn't want to make a scene and I was Davening, but I wish I could've explained to this person that as far as I knew I was in the seat I was told that I could sit in, and I wasn't some clueless seminary girl, and maybe she was in one in the wrong seat all these years, as my cousins didn't seem to have ever used them before (they got seats because my cousin was the Baal Tokia at this Yeshiva).

amother

Daffodil

Tue, Oct 08 2024, 6:05 am

amother OP wrote:

On Rosh Hashanah I got to shul just in time for the shofer and mussef. My husband and I paid $75 per seat for him and for me which is $150 and is a lot of money for us, especially at a time of a 3 day Yom Tov.
Anyways, I get there and start reading the seat map and I see that a lady probably in her 40s or 50s, maybe sitting in my seat looking very into her davening. I freeze. I myself I am a quieter, shy person and I don’t like confronting people. I was a bit annoyed because I wanted to daven well The seat was the perfect location I had it the first day. I didn’t say anything to the lady because I felt uncomfortable and I felt that it was Rosh Hashanah and I didn’t wanna embarrass her because I wouldn’t like it if someone did that to me.
I told my husband this and he said he understood where I was coming from but I did not do the right thing I should have said something to lady because we paid a lot of money for those seats and that Yom Kippur is coming she might just sit there again. What should I do about Yom Kippur? I want that seat, but I don’t want to make her feel bad or anyone who’s sitting there it’s very uncomfortable for me to kick someone out of my seat.

It's your seat. You paid for it. You obviously aren't moichel and honestly you shouldn't be. If I choose not to pay then I choose to risk not having a seat. If the seat belongs to someone and she's not there then why shouldn't I sit there? But if she comes then I am counting on her to tell me that she's there.

If you don't tell then the lady is oiver on gezel.

(I don't go to shul anymore lol. But I definitely used to and while it was always annoying to stand up when the well-dressed perfumy lady comes and says, "Can you please get out of my seat?" well yeah it was her seat.)

I don't care if she's in her 40s and 50s and you're in your 20s or 30s, it's your seat. Say, "Can you please get out of my seat? I paid for it." And if she doesn't get up then ask a bit louder and use the word gezel. She will get up because it's a very uncomfortable thing to be told on RH/YK that you are doing gezel.

Alternatively, ask someone you know and like and who goes early(but didn't pay) to sit in your spot for you and give it up when you come. She gets a great spot for most of the tefilla, free, and you get your great spot when you come. Win-win.