Tisha beav camp price gouging

amother

↑ Cerulean ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 12:14 pm

amother Mistyrose wrote:

I don’t believe we have an obligation to do chesed whenever we "can." I "can" quit my job completely and babysit for free as a chessed instead. My husband earns enough. But I don't want to do that. And that's OK. Yes, I do chesed. No I don't run daycare as a chesed, even though I can.

edit: it's great to incorporate chesed into one's job and many people do. I do a little bit of free work in my profession as chesed, but most of my chesed is not in my professional arena, and that's fine too. I could do more chesed in my profession, but I have other priorities I am balancing and I choose not to do it there. I don't have to max out on chesed anywhere I "can."

I didn't say you have an obligation to do chesed whenever you can. I said you that you should evaluate a chesed scenario on its own merits, without measuring how much you do elsewhere.

So if a chesed situation presents itself and you don't want to do it for whatever reason, that is perfectly fine. But to say that you don't need to do it just because you do chesed is elsewhere a wrong approach.

amother

↑ Broom ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 12:16 pm

amother Mistyrose wrote:

I believe you're twisting what she said. If anything this proves what she's saying- as situations come up, evaluate if there's a way you can be doing chessed with it.

In your case, the situation that came up: there's this time slot during the day, and currently I spend that time slot at work, I can quit it and do chessed, let me evaluate- hmm, nope, that would not work for me, so I will not take that route. But you know what, during my work day as I'm interacting with others, there are lots of ways I could do chessed, so if opportunities come up I can evaluate each one. A coworker calls me with a question, I don't necessarily have to be the one who answers it, it's actually more within Esther's realm, but Esther's not at her desk right now, so either I can quickly tell her "talk to Esther, maybe she can help you, I'll transfer you, leave her a message" or I can take 5 min out of my day to have the conversation, give her the helpful info, do that chessed. Etc!

Another example- I have to make supper every night. There's a meal train request. Do you say, " I'll evaluate, what's my life like right now, can I do this chessed now or not?" Or do you say "Well, I did that chessed at work earlier today with that coworker, so I think I can check off chessed for the day".

ETA- sorry, that took me a while to type up, I see Cerulean already responded. But I guess I was on the right track!

amother

↑ Foxglove

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 12:20 pm

amother Cerulean wrote:

See and I dont think you have a right to tell someone else when and how they should do chessed. This whole thread is about how other peoples kids should be doing chessed for ME. Not how can I incorporate chessed into MY life or how can I help my neighbor through tsha bav I

amother

↑ Broom ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 12:24 pm

amother Foxglove wrote:

See and I don't think you have a right to tell someone else when and how they should do chessed. This whole thread is about how other peoples kids should be doing chessed for ME. Not how can I incorporate chessed into MY life or how can I help my neighbor through tsha bav I

Oh, didn't seem as if Cerulean was saying what SHE thinks we should all be doing as far as Chessed, I took it to mean she was saying "this is what the value of chessed is- it's a value we're supposed to fit all throughout our life." Just the same way as if someone said "We're supposed to be careful about lashon harah in every conversation" and someone retorted "I don't think you have the right to tell me when I should be watchful about lashon harah!"

amother

↑ Cerulean ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 12:25 pm

amother Foxglove wrote:

I don't agree. I think it's the other way around on this thread. The majority (not all) parents recommending a balance seem to accept both sides of the argument.

However, the posters supporting the excessive fees are the ones saying 'ME'. They are the ones thinking about themselves only and are not looking at how this impacts others.

amother

↑ Pansy

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 12:28 pm

amother Mistyrose wrote:

I had such a story once and it really got me thinking.
I used to volunteer for an organization. I won't explain exactly what I did but it sometimes entailed being on the phone with people, making calls for them...
A woman who had used me in the past for this chessed sold a certain specialty gift and I called her up to order it and gave her my credit card number and paid for it. At the end of the transaction she asked if I was available to answer some questions. I ended up being on the phone with her for an hour. I obviously didn't get paid because I did it for a chessed. However, it was what started putting the niggling thoughts in my mind that I feel taken advantaged of and so I ended up drastically cutting down on the hours I volunteered. Now people who need this service pay somebody to do it.

↑ mummiedearest ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 12:29 pm

notshanarishona wrote:

Lets say camp for 4 hours:
2 arts and crafts projects probably cost a total of $50 max
Snack’s maybe $10 (almost none of these camps provide lunch$.
Each kid pays $80 times 10 kids (let’s say 2 are siblings and aren’t paying).
That’s $640 , even if you estimate up the expenses, and add in a couple hours of cleaning help afterwards , they are still making upwards of $50 an hour.
(Which is more than a adult would charge for babysitting).

It means they CAN make upwards of $50 per hour IF THEY FILL ALL THEIR AVAILABLE SLOTS. They are not charging $50 per hour.

Btw, all teens I know who do these things offer a significant sibling discount if you enroll two or more kids.

As for more than an adult would charge for babysitting- they’re filling a need because adults don’t WANT to babysit on this day. If you don’t want to pay them, don’t enroll your kid. But if you love the service and think it’s worth a peaceful fast day, enroll every year that they offer it.

amother

↑ Darkblue

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 1:10 pm

notshanarishona wrote:

I think you are underestimating the cost of both the crafts and the snacks. Not to mention, I would bet they also purchase prizes and supplies for games and such.

↑ notshanarishona

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 1:22 pm

amother DarkViolet wrote:

I see one advertised for boys ages 4-9 (not an easy demographic). They're asking 70 shekel per kid or 120 for 2 kids. 9:30 to 4:30 PM. Includes a hot lunch. 15 YO.

I see another one advertised for younger kids for 80 shekel a kid.

Obviously, money is different in Israel so can't exactly compare. But I've found these prices reasonable to me. What I have done is sent the kids that needed it the most and kept home the kids that didn't. But I did feel their prices were fair.

70 nis for a full day is very reasonable

↑ mummiedearest ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 1:45 pm

amother Cerulean wrote:

You are conflating so many points here, I don't even know where to begin. Of course there are multiple Torah values that can be integrated in any every scenario, so throwing them into the mix is just a source of misdirection.

This thread was about chesed and extreme monetization of the Tisha b'av program. Maaser and savings don't come into the mix here. Regardless of how much you charge, it still is part of the equation. So that is simply sidetracking the conversation.

Secondly, the points of parents perspective has been equally evaluated here and we are in agreement. Both mindsets are equally in play here. Of course parents should have th attitude you describe above but that doesn't downplay the current situation where kids are charging obscene amounts, 11 year old kids no less. Both points can be equally true and aren't mutually exclusive. So the parents attitude doesn't lessen the discussion how some kids are being manipulated by parents to monetize Tisha bav to the extreme.

So let's take all side conversations out of the mix and focus on Op's point. Lets say people have the right attitudes and let's say all the kids have had a lessen on maaser and savings. Does that mean the young kids get a blanket license to charge obscene fees, just because they can and parents are desperate? (Why parents are desperate is a separate conversation.) Or should there be a conversation about appropriate balance here? Is that what we should push our kids mindset to towards Tisha b'av - that they have a way to monetize the day, so let's take full advantage to the max. Or should we figure together with the kids a way to help others out while still making it worthwhile for them.

I disagree with your interpretation of the premise of the thread Smile

The thread was started by someone who complained that these prices were unfair because not everyone can afford it and the kids should lower their prices to accommodate everyone, iirc.

I believe that the kids are charging a fair price. I don’t think this is extreme monetizationof a fast day. Affordability does not determine fairness of price. To me, this thread is not about chessed. It’s about entitlement. Chessed is a great topic, and I think it should be discussed, encouraged. But the point of this thread was bemoaning the fact that lots of kids don’t want to offer a free service on a fast day. It wasn’t even a complaint that Tisha b’av with little kids is hard (it is) or that there’s a shortage of mothers helpers available for that day (is there?). The premise of this thread was to badmouth a younger generation as selfish because they don’t run their lives according to the whims of op. It was also to badmouth these kids’ moms, who obviously are not mechanech their children properly. And yes, some nice comments about encouraging kids to do chessed were thrown in, and disagreements about appropriate pricing and business practices are there. But those are ALL side points. The premise is in the op.

amother

↑ Cerulean

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 2:13 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

I disagree with your interpretation of the premise of the thread Smile

I think we are going in circles, so we will just agree to disagree.

But I don't agree with that blanket statement. Context is everything. Affordability does determine fairness of the price in some scenarios. If something is a need, then the price does need to be set at a fair affordability point for the average family. Key word is the average family. Obviously the price can't be set by what the poor can afford, nor should it be set based on what the rich can pay.

So it comes down to determining what's a community need and what is an extra. I think we all agree that Tisha bav day camp is an extra.

But, here is where chesed comes in the picture. The newer generation is in state where extras are slowly becoming a need. (Why that is so is a separate conversation.) So when a person is thinking about doing a TB daycamp, what is the intent. Is it solely about monetizing the day, or does helping out others come into play?

If it's the former, it's just about earning money, I have no comment. If it's partly about helping others too, then what is the mindset? Is it only about helping others who can afford these high costs, or is it about helping the average person in the neighborhood? Walking this through with your children and having then think through their actions to help support their decisions provides valuable chinuch as opposed to just teaching them to monetize a situation to the max.

amother

↑ Broom

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 2:14 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

I disagree with your interpretation of the premise of the thread Smile

How did you escalate "charge lower prices" (which OP asked because she felt they would be fairer prices) to "offer free services"?
My takeaway from the thread at large, as far as this point, was that there were many people who felt that it's ok for young kids to make money, it just doesn't need to be very high amounts of money per hour, and it's being inflated due to desperation*- if it were a more normal range per hour according to the young age of these girls, they wouldn't have an issue. And that the aspect of chessed that might come in here is girls being willing to charge a reasonable price instead of "the most they can get away with".

*Whether that desperation should even exist is another matter...

ETA, I see I crossposted with Cerulean yet again Smile

↑ mummiedearest

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 2:40 pm

amother Broom wrote:

You’re right, that was an editing mistake Smile

I don’t understand the accusation that kids are taking advantage of desperation. If they’re old enough to watch your preschooler for hours, they’re old enough to be paid. This attitude makes for a bad employer. Teens in my town have a blacklist for some families who they don’t trust to treat them fairly. Good for thought.