Tisha beav camp price gouging

amother

↑ Red ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 9:22 am

amother Broom wrote:

I mean, I DID run a Tisha b'Av camp last year. I charged $10 an hour, and had two assistants. So an 11 yr old charging $15 an hour is definitely overcharging, sorry.

So either you had a huge group, or someone (probably your assistants) wasn’t being paid very much.

amother

↑ Mistyrose ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 9:22 am

Trademark wrote:

We can have a whole other discussion about capitalism.

For example if there is a shortage of food do you think it's okay to charge a lot more, because of supply and demand?

For a particular random food, absolutely. If, there is suddenly a shortage of salmon, for example, I would expect the prices to go way up and it becomes a gourmet food. If someone wants to give away or sell discounted salmon as a chessed, great, but also fine if they want to charge $50/lb. I'll just eat tilapia.

If you are talking about hoarding and profiteering off food in times of general famine, that is a grossly inapt comparison for many reasons.

↑ mummiedearest ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 9:24 am

amother Broom wrote:

I mean, I DID run a Tisha b'Av camp last year. I charged $10 an hour, and had two assistants. So an 11 yr old charging $15 an hour is definitely overcharging, sorry.

Others clearly consider that price worth it. Your rates don’t have to be everyone else’s. These kid run businesses usually charge what they know people will pay. If no one is willing to pay that much, they’ll lower their prices or close the business.

↑ Trademark ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 9:25 am

amother Red wrote:

But her point is that price gorging things needed for survival is wrong, she agrees, but Tisha bav camp isn’t needed for survival and there’s a limited number of spots, so let them charge what they want and those who can will pay.

You're right my post didn't belong here.

But I feel the point many posters are making are going right above the heads of others.

Nobody's saying that 11-year-olds owe the young mothers anything.

We are saying it doesn't make sense for the moms of the 11-year-olds to teach their kids about charging so much. At that age they don't have that concept of money and it definitely comes from the mothers.

It's not good chinuch for the 11-year-olds is the point.

They can make a reasonable amount without charging so much.

amother

↑ Cerulean ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 9:32 am

amother Lightpink wrote:

Literally everything else in our society is based on capitalism. Take a look at the prices of tznius clothing, kosher food, tuition etc...but this is price gouging and nothing else is? Please. You don't like it watch your own kids. Make your own daycamp and watch everyone else's for cheap too.

Who says all that isn't price gouging either. I.e. the way certain foods go up in price right before YT is price gouging too.

It's sad that everything in our society has gone the way of capitalism. Seems like the secular mindset has overtaken us and we leave little place to insert Torah values into our actions.

That is not saying people shouldn't be earning money and charging decent prices but there needs to be a healthy balance and consider the impact to others. Our Torah doesnt support the idea of taking advantage of our own. Just because something is of limited supply or is a Jewish need, it doesn't provide an automatic license to charge obscene prices.

Using the justification that the market dictates I can charge xyz is a secular concept. Rationalizing it by saying that people should just go elsewhere is also not recognizing the impact to others. (Because once someone paves the way for higher prices, majority follow suit which then leaves little recourse to others.)

As Yidden, I would think that our goal would be to try to find the right balance between earning money and Torah values. But judging from this thread, it seems like Torah values are taking a strong backseat to money.

↑ mummiedearest ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 9:34 am

Trademark wrote:

You’re really judging their moms unfairly here.

I have been involved in advising some local teens on setting up their businesses. Basically, they have asked me what parents would be willing to pay. Some of these kids had purchasing goals in mind, others just like making money. They didn’t prove things based on my advice alone- some kids figured there are bigger spenders in town than I and priced above what I suggested. They felt it was worth it to have fewer clients if they could reach their goals. Other kids offered low prices in order to have more customers. The kids who priced theirs high felt that their time was worth too much to go for cheaper volume. Their moms did not dictate anything other than where they ran their businesses. Kids who start businesses are experimenting with this. They learn through their own mistakes. Their parents generally don’t want a certain level of involvement, these are fairly independent kids.

amother

DarkCyan ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 9:35 am

My mother could possibly be on here waxing about "the good old days" when girls ran tisha Bav camps for free

I was expected to run a camp from when I was 10 until 18. Yes, even while fasting. After all, my mother was pregnant or nursing and had young kids and needed help.
The dynamics changed every year. But it was myself and my sister a year younger, some kids 2-6 (when we were 10, it was 5 kids, by the time we were 18, it was 20 kids) and a few "junior counselors" age 7-9 who were there to "help" by being kept out of their parents hair.

The camp was expected to run from 1-7 and included lunch (sandwiches) and supper(pasta) which we prepared. But we didn't have to pay for basic food and basic paper and crayon supplies.

When I was 10 and 11, I was expected to run it for $5 per camper and pay my junior staff $1 apiece.
So I walked away with $8 after splitting with my sister.
When I turned 12, I was expected to make the camp, but because I was fasting I was allowed to raise the price to $12. And by the time I was 18, to $20. But pay my staff more.
The comments I got from both my mother and parents about how spoiled, and selfish and entitled and uncharitable, and what about Chessed. Because I had the chutzpa to walk away from a 6 hour camp on Tisha Bav with $50 profit when I was 12 and $500 when I was 18.

You'd think I stole money. I worked hard. The kids were hard.

That's the other perspective.
I don't think I'd support my kids charging $100 for a camp, but I understand the feeling and I definitely don't think teens and preteens deserve the selfish accusations that they're getting.

↑ mummiedearest ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 9:35 am

amother Cerulean wrote:

Earning money is a Torah value. They’re not mutually exclusive, that’s silly.

amother

↑ Mistyrose ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 9:37 am

amother Cerulean wrote:

When people are selling their own unskilled labor, as in the case of Tisha b Av camps, it is particularly absurd to say they are taking advantage of anyone.

Yes, in a capitalist society, there are ways in which investors can do unethical and unfair things and manipulate the market. But this thread is not it.

↑ Trademark ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 9:39 am

amother DarkCyan wrote:

Again a straw man.

amother

↑ Cerulean ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 9:39 am

mummiedearest wrote:

Earning money is a Torah value. They’re not mutually exclusive, that’s silly.

You missed the point so beautifully. My point was exactly that. Neither is mutually exclusive. Hence you are supposed to intertwine Torah values with earning money.

I would also challenge your thought process. Earning money isn't a value. It is a basic necessity of life. How you go about earning that money that's where Torah values come in.

amother

↑ Silver ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 9:41 am

amother Broom wrote:

I mean, I DID run a Tisha b'Av camp last year. I charged $10 an hour, and had two assistants. So an 11 yr old charging $15 an hour is definitely overcharging, sorry.

No, you undercharged. That’s on the individual themselves the price they want to charge. My babysitter charges $20 an hour. And my kids are sleeping. She’s not buying activities and snacks for them. And she’s not splitting it with two other workers.
And just because you did it, doesn’t mean everyone has to follow. Sorry

amother

↑ Broom ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 9:49 am

amother Silver wrote:

No, I charged that price because 4 other camps in my area were charging that price. So I didn't actually even come up with it. That is the going rate.

amother

↑ DarkCyan

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 9:50 am

Trademark wrote:

Again a straw man.

No. Actually.

Im commenting that

1) everyone who talks about in the good old days where everyone did it for pennies - well who says that was a good thing. Maybe it was unfair exploitation.

2) parents complain regardless. You see it here with adults all the time. Why does the playgroup Morahs need to charge so much. Why the therapist.
Its even worse with teens and preteens because we as society have determined that a 15 year old is "worth" $200 as a counselor in a big camp for 4 weeks or $350 as a counselor in a backyard camp. So according to that calculation, all they're "worth" for a Tisha Bav camp is $100 after paying staff, buying food and supplies, and splitting the profit.
Chv to say that counselors are actually worth way more and that walking away with a few hundred or even a few thousand from a tisha Bav camp is acceptable.

3) we start throwing in Chessed and that muddies the waters.

amother

↑ Foxglove ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 9:53 am

We r going in circles. Basically there are 2 schools of thought. And I dont think anyones mind will be changed
1)its a hard job that no one really wants to do so let these kids earn whatever they want to make $$and be worth their while. This is not a necessity and if you cant afford it make other arrangements
2) parents who believe it is the responsibility of others (in this case 11year olds) to take care of their needs (ie watching their kids which is hard for them while they are fasting) as either a chesed or token $ but basically these kids should be forced (if not strongly encouraged by their parents) to provide this “chessed”

↑ Trademark ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 9:55 am

amother Foxglove wrote:

Nope.

You totally didn't get the view of the other side. Read some posts again.

amother

↑ Broom ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 9:58 am

Trademark wrote:

Nope.

You totally didn't get the view of the other side. Read some posts again.

Unrelated side point but "you didn't get it, read the posts again" is a pointless and cheap response. Why should anyone have to read through all the posts to figure out exactly which post you feel they didn't get? If you disagree with her point here, be a grown up and tell her why. You can even quote the previous post (or posts) you feel are most relevant. Nobody is interested in deciphering your vague answer to figure out what you really meant.

amother

↑ Birch

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 9:59 am

Tishe bav camp didn't exist till fairly recently. It's not a necessity therefore no one is taking advantage of you unless you let them.

-signed, a really bad faster with three little kids at home, no idea how ill get through Tisha bav. At least there's videos, crayons, and playdough unlike YK.

↑ Trademark ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 10:01 am

amother Broom wrote:

Well many of us have explained again and again our points. And at this point it sounds as if people are willingly misreading and straw manning arguments.

I thought it's self understood for anyone reading this thread and I didn't think it's vague.
But to clarify I meant option two.

amother

↑ Broom ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 10:06 am

Trademark wrote:

I read the entire thread top to bottom and I don't see where she is wrong about option 2, so maybe clarify what part of her summary is wrong?

(Meaning, I'm not saying I'm in camp 1 or camp 2, but I'm saying I thought she made an accurate summary of both sides.)