Tisha beav camp price gouging

amother

↑ Whitesmoke

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 10:19 am

amother Foxglove wrote:

We r going in circles. Basically there are 2 schools of thought. And I dont think anyones mind will be changed
1)its a hard job that no one really wants to do so let these kids earn whatever they want to make $$and be worth their while. This is not a necessity and if you cant afford it make other arrangements
2) parents who believe it is the responsibility of others (in this case 11year olds) to take care of their needs (ie watching their kids which is hard for them while they are fasting) as either a chesed or token $ but basically these kids should be forced (if not strongly encouraged by their parents) to provide this “chessed”

I think the 2 schools of thought are a little different.

1) Children should be taught the value of helping others, of doing chessed, of looking out for people in a tough position. As parents, this may manifest as gentle encouragement to offer to watch some of the neighborhood kids for a couple of hours on 9Av. The adult who encourages this is usually one who fasts ok herself, can handle this in her house and be in the background if adults are needed, and has given her child the tools to send home a kid who isn't behaving. This also assumes that the recipients of the chessed appreciate it as just that, are verbally grateful, amd don't have complaints like "my kid was bored" "why is this only for 3 hours" "I don't want to send along lunch, why can't you just put up a pot of pasta for everyone"

2) Adults who see everything as a transaction amd are less community-minded. You want daycare pay for it. You want to run a program charge whatever you want. If people can't pay for it then it's on them. And this seems to come along with an understanding that this program will have major crafts and excitement (is that even appropriate for 9Av??) and will last 5-7 hours amd provide food and be run by adults. And feel that group 1 is just a bunch of leaches.

↑ Trademark

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 10:23 am

amother Whitesmoke wrote:

Great summary.

I would add another point to option one.

It's okay to charge if they would rather do that, but at such a young age the mothers shouldn't give them ideas about money and have them charge the absolute maximum possible. It's possible to make a decent amount of money for that age without overcharging.

amother

↑ Foxglove ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 10:25 am

amother Whitesmoke wrote:

This is a mischaracterization of both. Many of the posters who don’t support this particular form of chesed have expressed over and over how they and their children do plenty of chesed and its a true and important value in their home so no neither 1 or 2 is a summary of what people here think

↑ notshanarishona ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 10:36 am

amother Crimson wrote:

Many of these girls are earning their way to seminary. So let's blame the seminaries now : Why are they price gouging? Why aren't they doing chesed and running seminaries for free? Why is everything capitalism? What happened to the good old days of free seminary - when people were more community minded

We are talking about 11 year old girls, none of them are saving for seminary but that’s beside the point (yes people are rallying against over charging by seminaries and trying to make it socially acceptable to go to sem in the Us).
My point is that kids who normally charge $5 an hour, shouldn’t all the sudden need to charge $50 an hour because it’s 9 av and that it’s taking unfair advantage of people’s desperation.

amother

Fuchsia

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 10:41 am

amother DarkCyan wrote:

My mother could possibly be on here waxing about "the good old days" when girls ran tisha Bav camps for free

I was expected to run a camp from when I was 10 until 18. Yes, even while fasting. After all, my mother was pregnant or nursing and had young kids and needed help.
The dynamics changed every year. But it was myself and my sister a year younger, some kids 2-6 (when we were 10, it was 5 kids, by the time we were 18, it was 20 kids) and a few "junior counselors" age 7-9 who were there to "help" by being kept out of their parents hair.

The camp was expected to run from 1-7 and included lunch (sandwiches) and supper(pasta) which we prepared. But we didn't have to pay for basic food and basic paper and crayon supplies.

When I was 10 and 11, I was expected to run it for $5 per camper and pay my junior staff $1 apiece.
So I walked away with $8 after splitting with my sister.
When I turned 12, I was expected to make the camp, but because I was fasting I was allowed to raise the price to $12. And by the time I was 18, to $20. But pay my staff more.
The comments I got from both my mother and parents about how spoiled, and selfish and entitled and uncharitable, and what about Chessed. Because I had the chutzpa to walk away from a 6 hour camp on Tisha Bav with $50 profit when I was 12 and $500 when I was 18.

You'd think I stole money. I worked hard. The kids were hard.

That's the other perspective.
I don't think I'd support my kids charging $100 for a camp, but I understand the feeling and I definitely don't think teens and preteens deserve the selfish accusations that they're getting.

Good for you. I don’t understand why we’re expecting 11 year olds to work for free. They might want to go to shiurim or watch those inspirational videos. I can’t afford to pay $60 for camp so I don’t! I watch them myself and we all get through it. But charging $15 an hour for a camp with lunch snacks and crafts is kind of normal. And many of these camp morahs are fasting themselves

amother

Topaz

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 10:43 am

notshanarishona wrote:

Consider yourself lucky that you don’t have any health challenges and can’t relate to not being able to fast and watch your kids simultaneously. Yes there are times I physically can’t take care of my toddler. My husband does a lot but especially on a day like 9 av he would like to be able to make it to a minyan and/ or kinos.
No one is saying the responsibility for watching all of tbe community kids is on the pre teens, just that if they are anyway making programs, it would be nice if it is done in affordable ways

Because this is the internet and things come across less empathetic than intended, I just want to be clear that I'm saying this with lots of empathy toward your situation. I know someone well who was going through a difficult time medically and needed her DH home in the evenings with the kids. This timing fell specifically around when he could get a minyan. It was a huge struggle for him because he had just lost a parent and was saying kaddish and really wanted to do so. And their Rav told him that he was obligated to be home then for his wife and kids, even if it meant missing saying kaddish with a minyan.

I wanted to share this because sometimes people don't think to even ask a shaila. As women, we're often raised to think that we need to take on everything and just keep sacrificing to support our DHs in becoming tzaddikim and/or being successful in life. We encourage them to go out and say we'll be fine when we really won't be fine. We don't even consider asking a rav because we feel like we can just push ourselves a little more. I don't know your personal situation, but I know that sometimes a DH's tafkid is to be home, supporting his family. If you haven't checked in with a rav about your situation, maybe that could be something you do.

↑ mummiedearest ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 10:48 am

amother Cerulean wrote:

You missed the point so beautifully. My point was exactly that. Neither is mutually exclusive. Hence you are supposed to intertwine Torah values with earning money.

I would also challenge your thought process. Earning money isn't a value. It is a basic necessity of life. How you go about earning that money that's where Torah values come in.

No, I don’t believe I did. When you have to balance two things, those things are in competition with each other. A torah lifestyle provides an ethical framework in which there is value to earning money. Money is not at odds with Torah. If we thought earning money was not a value, we’d all be poor intentionally. We’d never protect someone else’s parnassah, we wouldn’t give tzedaka, etc. The greatest form of tzedaka is helping someone find a job- because making your own money is a virtue.

These kids who are charging whatever they charge are being taught to manage their time and money while young. It is wonderful chinuch. They can be taught to set aside maaser, to save, to decide what is worth spending on. There is absolutely value here. If this is a common thing in your area, I think kids’ shiurim with a local rabbi explaining the halachos of business would be fantastic. Maybe that’s where the community interest should lie instead of whining that the kids/moms/world are depriving others of their entitlements.

↑ mummiedearest ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 11:21 am

notshanarishona wrote:

Yes, when you charge $80 for 4 hours and have 10 kids that comes out to way more than $50 an hour

Charging $50 per hour is not the same as $20 per hour per kid. They are charging $20 per hour, which likely is not all profit, especially if there are two or more counselors. If two friends do this together, they are charging $10 an hour each, and some of that will go to supplies. Keep in mind that someone has to host this- after 10 small kids all day on a fast day, I’d probably have my daughter pay for a one time cleaner out of camp costs. Tbh, I wouldn’t want to have the camp in my home at all, but if I allowed it, this would be a stipulation. Add the aforementioned supplies if they need those, food if that’s on offer, the profit isn’t anywhere near what you think it is.

amother

↑ Cerulean ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 11:24 am

mummiedearest wrote:

No one mentioned money being at odds with the Torah. It works together with the Torah. Your thought process above actually separates money as it's own entity without any inclusion of values into it.

Integrating Torah values into our actions is not a means of competition. It is a means of finding the right balance. This applies to all actions of our lives. How we parent, how we behave towards each other etc.That is indeed the challenge in life - figuring out what the right balance is for each scenario on its own merits.

So is this indeed the right chinuch for our kids I'm this scenario - to teach them how to monetize a service to the max? Or is it to teach them how to include Torah values with their decision making. I think we can all agree that this is not a parnossoh question. 11 year olds aren't doing this as a means to support themselves. So the question one needs to ask here, what is the purpose of a kid running a Tisha b'av camp. Is it solely to take advantage of a money opportunity, or is it helping others involved here as well?

If it's about solely about making money, a valuable chinuch lesson is lost. If it's about helping others, then why not have a discussion about how to find the middle road here. Balance the earnings with the value of helping others. Most 11 years would be happy with earning a nominal fee too. It is the adults in their lives that are raising expectations for them.

You can still teach kids about maaser, savings etc, alongside Torah values. I don't see that as a competition in any form.

amother

↑ Cerulean ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 11:30 am

amother Foxglove wrote:

This is a mischaracterization of both. Many of the posters who don’t support this particular form of chesed have expressed over and over how they and their children do plenty of chesed and its a true and important value in their he so no neither 1 or 2 is a summary of what people here think

To give another perspective, I've noticed that people approach chesed as a checkbox, as something to just check off from their list. I.e. I do chessed with xyz, so here I don't need to consider chesed.

Chessed should be something that's integrated in our lives, and not just a checkbox. When a scenario presents itself, evaluate it on its own merit. As in, can I incorporate chesed into this or not based on current circumstances. It shouldn't matter if you do or don't do chesed elsewhere. There isn't a precise measure that you can check off chesed against. Just evaluate the current situation and see if this is something you can or cannot do at this moment in time.

It's perfectly fine if you can't. It's 100% acceptable. I am just saying that the excuse shouldn't be that you don't even need to consider the chesed aspect here just because you do chesed elsewhere. There is no quota to chesed.

↑ mummiedearest ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 11:45 am

amother Cerulean wrote:

No one mentioned money being at odds wirh the Torah. It works togethe with the Torah. Your thought process above actually separates money ad it's own entity without any inclusion of values into it.

Integrating Torah values into our actions is not a means of competition. It is a means of finding the right balance. This applies to all actions of our lives. How we parent, how we behave towards each other etc.That is indeed the challenge in life - figuring out what the right balance is for each scenario on its own merits.

So is this indeed the right chinuch for our kids I'm this scenario - to teach them how to monetize a service to the max? Or is it to teach them how to include Torah values with their decision making. I think we can all agree that this is not a parnossoh question. 11 year olds aren't doing this as a means to support themselves. So the question one needs to ask here, what is the purpose of a kid running a Tisha b'av camp. Is it solely to take advantage of a money opportunity, or is it helping others involved here as well?

If it's about solely about making money, a valuable chinuch lesson is lost. If it's about helping others, then why not have a discussion about how to find the middle road here. Balance the earnings with the value of helping others. Most 11 years would be happy with earning a nominal fee too. It is the adults in their lives that are raising expectations for them.

You can still teach kids about maaser, savings etc, alongside Torah values. I don't see that as a competition in any form.

When you talk about balancing money and Torah, that indicates that there is competition between the two. That is what balancing means. They each have their own weight separate from the other.

Last paragraph- maaser and savings ARE Torah values. They are not alongside each other.

Sure, 11 year olds are often happy with a nominal fee. Those aren’t the kids who start their own businesses. Those are the kids who work at day camp for $25 a week and are happy with the arrangement.

Rather than find a way to change what these entrepreneurial kids are offering, why don’t we change our attitudes as adults? The current attitude is “Uch. I can’t believe how obnoxious these kids are. They should be required to lower their prices because I need my kids to be busy.” The appropriate attitude as responsible adults would really be “it would be great if I could afford something like that. Maybe I can arrange something suitable for my needs in my price range.” It is completely inappropriate to think that someone else’s kid should be responsible for yours just because they’re willing to offer a service for a fee. If there is dire need to send the kids to a camp, maybe it would even be appropriate to approach the shul’s rav and find out if there are community funds that will cover this one time expense. Or maybe there is someone in the community would watch your kids as a favor. But that is on the parent to look for and arrange, not the preteens in the community who are being helpful in their own way. And again, I think kid classes on business Halacha would be great.

↑ notshanarishona ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 11:48 am

mummiedearest wrote:

Lets say camp for 4 hours:
2 arts and crafts projects probably cost a total of $50 max
Snack’s maybe $10 (almost none of these camps provide lunch$.
Each kid pays $80 times 10 kids (let’s say 2 are siblings and aren’t paying).
That’s $640 , even if you estimate up the expenses, and add in a couple hours of cleaning help afterwards , they are still making upwards of $50 an hour.
(Which is more than a adult would charge for babysitting).

amother

↑ Foxglove ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 11:54 am

amother Cerulean wrote:

Sure I agree you can do as much chessed as you like and instill this value in your children dont impose it on others. Dont walk into a luxury boutique and tell the owner you need to do chesed for me and give me this at 50% off.
And btw I dont agree that kids who are doing this for $ are not still providing a huge chessed to the many parents who could afford to pay

Eta: if it were my kids running the camp I would probably encourage them to charge the going rate no matter how high that is (and btw I think the prices here are grossly exaggerated) and perhaps have a slot or 2 for chesed for someone in the community who either cant afford/ a single parent etc. those who can afford to pay dont need to take advantage of this “chessed”

amother

↑ Mistyrose

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 12:07 pm

amother Cerulean wrote:

I don’t believe we have an obligation to do chesed whenever we "can." I "can" quit my job completely and babysit for free as a chessed instead. My husband earns enough. But I don't want to do that. And that's OK. Yes, I do chesed. No I don't run daycare as a chesed, even though I can.

edit: it's great to incorporate chesed into one's job and many people do. I do a little bit of free work in my profession as chesed, but most of my chesed is not in my professional arena, and that's fine too. I could do more chesed in my profession, but I have other priorities I am balancing and I choose not to do it there. I don't have to max out on chesed anywhere I "can."

amother

↑ Cerulean ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 12:12 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

You are conflating so many points here, I don't even know where to begin. Of course there are multiple Torah values that can be integrated in any every scenario, so throwing them into the mix is just a source of misdirection.

This thread was about chesed and extreme monetization of the Tisha b'av program. Maaser and savings don't come into the mix here. Regardless of how much you charge, it still is part of the equation. So that is simply sidetracking the conversation.

Secondly, the points of parents perspective has been equally evaluated here and we are in agreement. Both mindsets are equally in play here. Of course parents should have th attitude you describe above but that doesn't downplay the current situation where kids are charging obscene amounts, 11 year old kids no less. Both points can be equally true and aren't mutually exclusive. So the parents attitude doesn't lessen the discussion how some kids are being manipulated by parents to monetize Tisha bav to the extreme.

So let's take all side conversations out of the mix and focus on Op's point. Lets say people have the right attitudes and let's say all the kids have had a lessen on maaser and savings. Does that mean the young kids get a blanket license to charge obscene fees, just because they can and parents are desperate? (Why parents are desperate is a separate conversation.) Or should there be a conversation about appropriate balance here? Is that what we should push our kids mindset to towards Tisha b'av - that they have a way to monetize the day, so let's take full advantage to the max. Or should we figure together with the kids a way to help others out while still making it worthwhile for them.