S/o kollel ppl should live simply

amother

Peachpuff

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 4:02 pm

I think there is an issue with the attitude of many in kollel. Kollel has become a lifestyle at this point. In my opinion, many people in kollel are not learning seriously and should be working to fulfill their kesuba.

I was at a very very yeshivish cousin's wedding right before "yeshivah week" and they were all discussing their vacation plans. They asked my husband his plans and guess what, he works and isn't just entitled to a vacation.

I think kollel people should be taking kollel as seriously as they would a job. (Going every day on time, no matter what etc.)

When all these issues are combined with the spending it just feels off to me. It feels more like a lifestyle than actually being machshiv Torah.

Last edited by amother on Mon, Jun 24 2024, 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

Reenee

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 4:02 pm

So I'm a kollel wife, and the way I see it there are 2 main issues.

1) Unless the wife is making a lot of $$$, a kollel family usually gets help from yeshiva stipend (kollel check), parents or other help- which is fine! One of my "rabbeim" in sem used to quote from rav moshe that kollel families should not feel badly about accepting assistance because klal yisroel needs such families and SHOULD be assisting such families. At the same time, if you are living on the good-natured assistance of others, you have no right to splurge on crazy extras. THAT, I think, IS something a kollel family has to realize, that I don't think alot of us do.

If the wife happens to bring in a lot of money or they have some inheritance or whatever, that's different, but the average kollel family does not have extra $$$ on their own, so taking from others (such as in-laws) for your luxuries, is not right. If you want luxuries, go to work- there's nothing wrong with that.

2)A lifestyle that is VERY over-the-top gashmiusdik and that is always focusing on name brands, designer this, fancy vacations etc. is not the way anyone should ideally live, and surely not any family that wants to call themselves a torah family.

In my experience, I don't think ppl expect me to look "poor" or would be upset if I don't come across as a bad lady in rags. But if I would dress in crazy expensive designer clothes and take luxurious vacays (as opposed to a perfectly nice getaway) and make a simcha on par with the wealthiest ppl with custom everything and upgraded everything, THAT would get people upset, and I'd totaly understand that.

amother

Snapdragon

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 4:04 pm

amother Lightblue wrote:

This thread reeks of jealousy. and my husband has never been in kollel.

In the chassidish world it is less common to sit and learn. Often the ones that do learn for long years, are those married to daughters of wealthy families. So you know what? You’ll find many Torah yungeleit who are living on really high standards. So what? It’s beautiful and good for them. That’s what we call Torah igadulah bmokom echod. And guess what, people can be really refined Torah people even when wealthy.

If you can’t find it in yourself to fargin someone else’s lifestyle, time to look into yourself. You might think that your disguising your envy well, but most of us see right through it.

It isn't envy and this is not what Torah igadukah bmokom echod means.

This isn't such a problem in the chassidish world. Bec as you say, the majority go out to work. It's mostly the wealthy who get this privilege. Hence you will see much fewer fund collections towards kollel. And kollel discounts aren't that much of a thing either.

The disconnect happens when you collect large sums of money from society for a particular group, and then raise the standard for that group so that they're living better than the average family. Since this isn't relevant much to the chassidish world, the chassidish reference here isn't applicable.

amother

Bluebell

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 4:07 pm

amother Zinnia wrote:

A person who spends his day learning should know better than to let his wife raise the standard or help upkeep an impossible standard for most families. If you work very hard and make a lot of money you should be tzanuah about it. And if your husband sits and learns Torah but doesn't understand basic tznius and allows his family to live a showy lifestyle then obviously his Torah learning is not really sinking in.

I agree with most of this (becasue if a wife and husband are not on the same page you can't expect a husband to control the standards the wife raises)
We are a kollel family totally not supported and I make around 1M shekel a year. Which is a ton in Israel. While I pay for a ton of household help, so I can be a better wife and mother, we are very careful that our lifestlye is the same as most kollel families where we live. Im pretty sure that no one knows how much money we really have. (The only thing is my husband doesnt take a check which raised an eyebrow from the Rosh Kollel and office staff) but Im not buying lavish lunches everyday, shaitels every year and going on vacation all the time like some of my friends and family that live elsewhere, and are in worse financial state than I am and their husbands are not in kollel. I don't care that they do, its just not neccesary for us.

We decidied we want to have a simple/kollel lifestyle house, and happened to make a lot of money along way, but aside from the household help that I have we really try to live the same.

synthy

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 4:08 pm

amother Snapdragon wrote:

It isn't. If funds are being raised to support the SAHM, questions would be similarlying raised.

I don’t know how it works in every kollel, but my dh earns around $500 a month if he comes every day on time. If he’s misses the time to punch in he doesn’t earn anything that day.
Similarly, there are certain chaburas for working ppl that pay for farhers.
No one is saying:here’s money for bread and milk. No, they donate because they want a share in the Torah that this guy learns. If kollel stipends were charity you’d only be eligible if your wife doesn’t earn enough, and it wouldn’t be contingent on clocking in on time and passing farhers.

joonabug

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 4:08 pm

[quote="Reenee"]So I'm a kollel wife, and the way I see it there are 2 main issues.

but the average kollel family does not have extra $$$ on their own, so taking from others (such as in-laws) for your luxuries, is not right. If you want luxuries, go to work- there's nothing wrong with that.

what is wrong with in laws paying for luxeries if they have the money?

synthy

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 4:16 pm

Also I’ll just say I’m against ANYONE flashing their wealth and sharing their frequent vacations and dressing little stinkers in $150 outfits. And if a kollel family can truly afford it, I hope he’s not taking his meager stipend -it won’t make an impact on their finances.
But I don’t think there has to be a difference in the way we look at a kollel family splurging or a sahm family splurging.

amother

Oldlace

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 4:17 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

AFAIK nobody on this thread, neither on the base thread has said kollel people shouldn't buy nice things our not take a vacation. No one.
You can, IMHO have very nice things and take vacation.
The question is: What's your focus?
Torah learning chinuch and Torah values?
Or is your mind busy with your next vacation and a brand name garment?
You can focus on gashmious. You can focus on ruchnious. But you CANNOT focus on both at the same time.
Which ones is your 1st priority?

Why do I never hear this discussion when the working guy who’s up to learn at 5 am and is also super successful is discussed?
Somehow if he’s a lawyer raking it in this discussion of living luxuriously is never mentioned.
I’m not saying he’s not focused on ruchnius, just somehow the point is never mentioned next to the strong comments about how he can be just as torahdik as the kollel guy.
(And that a doctor isn’t even allowed to charge for his services, and that it is considered something for the klal that needs a halachic workaround is certainly not brought up).

That being said, I agree that what’s the focus is a great point.

amother

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 4:17 pm

[quote="joonabug"]

Reenee wrote:

So I'm a kollel wife, and the way I see it there are 2 main issues.

but the average kollel family does not have extra $$$ on their own, so taking from others (such as in-laws) for your luxuries, is not right. If you want luxuries, go to work- there's nothing wrong with that.

what is wrong with in laws paying for luxeries if they have the money?

A lot of times in laws also bring kids along on vacation. They don’t necessarily hand the money and say do what you please with it

Reenee

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 4:22 pm

[quote="joonabug"]

Reenee wrote:

what is wrong with in laws paying for luxeries if they have the money?

If they are giving the money specifically for you to get those luxuries, nothing.

But if you're asking for money ("We need X amount this month") and then use it for luxuries, I don't think that's usually what the giver had in mind. My in-laws help us cause they're generous, not cause they're rich. and I don't think the average in-laws are either. they are happy to help, but no necessarily for you to splurge on every extra you fancy.

if they have the $$ and specifically want to share luxuries with you too, I don't think most ppl have an issue with wealthy ppl's children in laws living a wealthy lifestyle too.

joonabug

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 4:25 pm

Reenee wrote:

If they are giving the money specifically for you to get those luxuries, nothing.

But if you're asking for money ("We need X amount this month") and then use it for luxuries, I don't think that's usually what the giver had in mind. My in-laws help us cause they're generous, not cause they're. and I don't think the average in-laws are either. they are happy to help, but no necessarily for you to splurge on every extra you fancy.

if they have the $$ and specifically want to share luxuries with you too, I don't think most ppl have an issue with wealthy ppl's children in laws living a wealthy lifestyle too.

okay yeah I agree. def wouldnt be normal to take money from middle/low class people and use it for luxeries. but I think thats common sense.

amother

Snapdragon

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 4:25 pm

amother Oldlace wrote:

Because society deemed his work as second class. If your work is deemed as first class, the elite path, then more is expected of you. Especially if the first class path is the Torah path, there is a greater expectation that you actually live by example of what your learning entails.

If we correct our ways, and accept both working w/ kovei itim and kollel paths to be of equal status, your point stands. But society currently doesn't accept them as equal.

amother

Snapdragon

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 4:28 pm

joonabug wrote:

okay yeah I agree. def wouldnt be normal to take money from middle/low class people and use it for luxeries. but I think thats common sense.

But isn't this what some tzedakah organizations do for kollel support? Collect tzedaka from low/middle income families and then use those funds to provide higher living standards for kollel members. Those living standards are higher than the low-middle income living standards.

amother

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 4:29 pm

amother Snapdragon wrote:

I highly doubt the ones dressing their kids in designer and living luxurious lives are the ones collecting Tzedaka

amother

Snapdragon

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 4:32 pm

amother OP wrote:

I highly doubt the ones dressing their kids in designer and living luxurious lives are the ones collecting Tzedaka

They're given to them as vouchers, or as bonuses, or as heavily discounted promotions to support kollel yungerleit. Designer clothing included.

amother

Snapdragon

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 4:33 pm

[quote="amother OP"]

amother Snapdragon wrote:

It isn't envy and this is not what Torah igadukah bmokom echod means.

Why not? So what does it mean?

It means Torah and greatness. Greatness as in lifetime achievements and leadership, etc. It doesn't imply wealth - especially not inherited wealth.

joonabug

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 4:36 pm

amother Snapdragon wrote:

those middle/ low class ppl dont have to give tzeddakah to the kollels if they dont want, and if they do, trust me they get all the schar in the world for it and they dont need to be worried about how their money is being spent. it is on each individual to decide whether or not they want to live off of tzedakkah money and its between them and Hashem how they choose to spend that tzeddakah money.
That being said you also have no clue anyones situation. I dont come from a wealthy family and my parents did need to get tuition breaks etc but I had very wealthy grandparents. they were not religious and refused to help pay tuition, yet they would pay for clothing, camp, and vacations. so really you shouldnt judge bc you just dont know.