For all those jealous of the poor—peaceful discussion please

↑ Trademark ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 9:41 am

mikayla18 wrote:

I didnt read all of this thread but definitly read a significant amount. I'm curious if anyone realizes the effect this had on the "younger" generation ie: people who got married in the last 5 years. My friends want to have A) not as many kids b) more spread out kids for this reason. And Baruch Hashem, I would put us in the "drop above middle" class solely because none of us have tuition yet (but we have babysitters etc). But we're not looking to struggle, it's too hard. And we want to go on vacation and not have to worry about it being only on points or only once every time I win a Chinese auction (never lol). And ofc parnassah comes from Hashem, but Hashem promises parnassah if you give maaser etc-He doesn't promise trips to Bali and Dubai lol. The Norm has shifted so astronomically and prices have gone up so much, the rich get richer (cuz they can still do vacations etc) and the poor are still wondering how they're they're going to spend 1/3 of an hour of work on a dozen eggs. I think the lifestyle shift of everyone is shifting subconsciously and I'm curious to see where it ends up

It's quite the leap from not wanting to struggle (very understandable) to vacationing in Dubai (not a Jewish reason to have less kids.)

amother

↑ Stone ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 9:50 am

mikayla18 wrote:

I know someone who made 200k last year, still couldn't pay all tuitions etc. Everything went to bills.

I understand frum life is expensive but a reality check - most people in the US don't make close to $200,000 a year - there are very few jobs that pay that much and even those salaries are generally achieved after being in the work force for more than a few years. And often there are student loans for med school, MBA or law degree plus deferred income during those years when they are still in school - and that is even assuming that all of these people have the exceptional drive AND intelligence to get into these very competitive fields because not all people are equally smart.

And yes there are some people who manage to start successful businesses but the majority of small business owners do NOT make more than $200,000 from their businesses - spare me the anecedotal stories about someone who started with nothing and is now a multi-millionaire. Yes they exist but not in numbers sufficient to make them anything other than outliers.

I understand people are going to state that these are not choices but costs people must incur for even a "frugal" frum lifestyle.

However, if a frugal frum lifestyle requires a salary in excess of $200,000 something has to give.

amother

↑ Seablue ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 10:00 am

mikayla18 wrote:

I know someone who made 200k last year, still couldn't pay all tuitions etc. Everything went to bills.

Ok and this still isn't poor. You can't make this much money and cry poverty. Even though the frum frugal life of the upper middle class makes it seem as much.

amother

↑ NeonPink ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 11:54 am

amother Seablue wrote:

Ok and this still isn't poor. You can't make this much money and cry poverty. Even though the frum frugal life of the upper middle class makes it seem as much.

Realistically poor though. If the mafia is going after a person for 1million and that person only earns 800k he's poor.

It doesn't really matter what the numbers show it matters if you have anything left after paying bills.

↑ Amarante ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 12:02 pm

amother NeonPink wrote:

No. He is an idiot. 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️😂😂

amother

↑ Rainbow ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 12:21 pm

amother Seablue wrote:

Ok and this still isn't poor. You can't make this much money and cry poverty. Even though the frum frugal life of the upper middle class makes it seem as much.

It depends where you live. If you live not in Lakewood and tuition is 15k and you have five kids… well that’s half of your takehome pay right there!

amother

↑ Coffee ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 12:24 pm

I agree that something has to give. But what?

My tuition and camp fees are in the $80,000 range.
Housing costs (rent, utilities) are $30,000 a year.
We are fairly frugal with food but that's still well over $20,000 annually.
Transportation costs are well over $10,000 a year.
I have $30,000 of credit card debt that seems impossible to make a dent in. Minimum payments are over $10,000 a year.

That's $150,000+ of post-tax dollars, and I didn't include clothing, shoes, Yom Tov expenses, health, etc. And I live OOT with lower standards!

When we were officially poor, we just didn't pay tuition. We couldn't. We got food stamps which kept us fed. We got HEAP which helped keep the house warm. We didn't own a car and had to rent to go anywhere. That's how we managed on under $60,000 a year.

Now we make much more. We have a car which is a good thing because rental costs have doubled or tripled. We try to pay tuition. We don't have cleaning help or babysitting. My kids are bigger and hand-me-downs don't always work as well for teens. Even Tottini and Kidichic on clearance cost money. I buy shoes from Walmart or sometimes Target but those aren't free either.

If I stopped paying tuition we'd be okay, but obviously that's not an option.

↑ seeker

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 12:29 pm

amother OP wrote:

And the pizza and ice cream stores always being full especially motzei shabbos also is very interesting to me.... We didn't have pizza since COVID so DH and I decided to after a long time get a slice for ourselves , well like I posted on a different thread 2 slices and a can of coke cost us almost 10 dollars.. we decided for the meantime it's not happening again...

The stores are full of teenagers. From what I see, with a few exceptions, most teenagers are not very worried about saving for the future and they go out to eat alllll the time. I remember doing pizza with friends from time to time as a teen but I don't remember living it up the way teens these days seem to. Hopefully they'll be able to adjust when they grow up and need to spend on other things.

Deep Blue

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 12:47 pm

I can relate to Mikayla's post regarding the younger generation. I got married 4 years ago and have 3 kids and make a combined income of about 100k. We used all our savings to buy a small old house and now live paycheck to paycheck. I would not want to limit the amount of kids I have, yet I do get overwhelmed and sometimes depressed.
Yet I would never try to get a lower salary.
When I complain to my mother or ask how we will manage, since our expenses will only go up, she reminds me that our income will go up as well. We will save for bar mitzvahs a little at a time now, borrow for chasunos, and then once our kids are out of school, be able to pay it back within a few short years. That is the stage she is currently at. She finally feels capable of being generous with giving to her children and already saved most of the expected expenses for her remaining Chasunos. Plus she owns her home free and clear so she is technically a millionaire, after feeling poor her whole life.

↑ Amarante ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 1:24 pm

amother NeonPink wrote:

He's poor And desperate.

If he had $800,000 and is $1,000,000 in debt I stand behind my statement that he is an idiot because he made some very poor financial decisions. Assuming he actually *had* $800,000 at some point

And I am not sure why you added Mafia but if he borrowed from loan sharks he is seriously crazy as he should have bitten the bullet and filed for bankruptcy.

amother

↑ NeonPink ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 1:29 pm

Amarante wrote:

Not the point here. He's still poor right now regardless of whether you agree or understand his choices.

Some people claim having kids before you have 150k saved up plus a house plus retirement is also idiotic. Since when are prior choices the gauge of true poverty? Are we only discussing those born into poverty?

↑ Amarante ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 1:37 pm

amother NeonPink wrote:

Okay then I don't understand your comment or what it brings to the table.

If I take it seriously, someone had $800,000 and managed to squander it in some way.

I thought the *serious* aspect of the discussion was *regular* people who worked at relatively *regular* jobs and made a relatively *regular* salary but still had difficulty making ends meet because the cost of living for essentials was so high.

I would suspect that the vast majority of people who had $800,000 in assets would not at this point be penniless and $200,000 in debt.

You posited a ridiculous hypothetical and I responded somewhat blithely that the person must be an idiot to have squandered $800,000 AND to have borrowed a million from the Mafia. Very Happy

amother

↑ NeonPink ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 1:41 pm

Amarante wrote:

My only point in this extreme hypothetical example was to explain that poverty is not measured by a number and so using a financial line where anyone above that isn't suffering from poverty is ridiculous too.

ora_43 ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 1:51 pm

amother NeonPink wrote:

It doesn't really matter what the numbers show it matters if you have anything left after paying bills.

It also matters a heck of a lot what those bills were for.

Like, to take an extreme example, someone who has "nothing left" after paying the mortgage on a new penthouse in Manhattan, making the car payments on a brand new bmw, etc, isn't poor. They're a rich person living to the edges of their budget.

I assume that's not the situation we're talking about here, but there's still a big difference between someone who can't pay full tuition after paying for their mortgage, a decent car, and therapies for their kids (standard middle class woes - not making light of it, it's hard) and someone who can't pay for shoes after paying for electricity and food (poor).

↑ mikayla18 ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 2:04 pm

ora_43 wrote:

The person I was talking about has none of those things, between a regular mortgage, 8 tuitions and camp, insurance, food, having family for yt etc...costs are extreme.

amother

↑ Feverfew ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 2:17 pm

mikayla18 wrote:

The person I was talking about has none of those things, between a regular mortgage, 8 tuitions and camp, insurance, food, having family for yt etc...costs are extreme.

But maybe camp and having family for YT is a luxury…

amother

↑ NeonPink ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 2:21 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Of course!
Yet! A kid who needs therapy is equally as important as electricity.
Maslow's hierarchy of needs apply. But it's silly to claim that those who can afford bread and beans aren't hungry and therefore aren't dealing with poverty.

I'd coin it mainstream Jewish poverty. Where private schools matter, shabbos clothes matter, and proximity to shuls matter. Poverty means you can't get medical attention when you need it, you can't afford to fix your heat. It's not a financial number.

amother

↑ Feverfew ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 2:23 pm

Trademark wrote:

It's quite the leap from not wanting to struggle (very understandable) to vacationing in Dubai (not a Jewish reason to have less kids.)

Exactly. And even more than not struggling, there are minor luxuries that don’t come anywhere near vacationing in Dubai. It’s so interesting how people are grouping together things like getting pizza on MS and luxury vacations. I have lots of friends jetsetting around the world, but I’m assuming they have more money than I do. To me that’s not in the same ballpark as buying takeout. Somehow in the frum world these major luxuries became normal. And most people can’t afford it. Let the rich enjoy, but don’t think for a second that it’s the norm and that we should all be able to afford it. Same for the high end designer clothes that people who otherwise don’t seem to have money are wearing. No idea how that happened.