For all those jealous of the poor—peaceful discussion please

amother

Crystal

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 2:24 pm

mikayla18 wrote:

I know someone who made 200k last year, still couldn't pay all tuitions etc. Everything went to bills.

Completely agree. Having 6 children and tuition costs- someone can make 200,000 and be in the poor category after taxes.
If you run the numbers, looking at even out of town communities you will see this clearly.

amother

↑ Feverfew

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 2:26 pm

amother NeonPink wrote:

Having kids is just as much a luxury. So is living in a Jewish neighborhood.
Where's the line?

How is having kids and living in a Jewish neighborhood a luxury that is equal to going to camp and hosting large holiday meals? (I’m assuming you mean overnight camp btw.)

amother

↑ NeonPink ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 2:41 pm

amother Feverfew wrote:

How is having kids and living in a Jewish neighborhood a luxury that is equal to going to camp and hosting large holiday meals? (I’m assuming you mean overnight camp btw.)

Ask around. It's a subjective opinion. What you consider a non-luxury is a luxury for the next person.

Where's the line?

amother

↑ NeonPink ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 2:45 pm

Wolfsbane wrote:

Maybe we can distinguish between poverty and financial strain?

Or just distinguish between accepted Jewish needs (enjoying a family meal together on yom tov?!) And 3rd world country poverty of no clean water?

amother

↑ Seablue ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 3:08 pm

amother NeonPink wrote:

My only point in this extreme hypothetical example was to explain that poverty is not measured by a number and so using a financial line where anyone above that isn't suffering from poverty is ridiculous too.

Poverty is literally defined by the federal government. This thread isn't about being jealous of the poor, it's about how an OP who's on handout programs is living in fantasy land, thinking the middle class live luxury lives. Nope, we may be defined as middle class, but we're operationally poor.

And to those on programs who have cleaning help even 2 hrs a week, good for you, I wouldn't be able to afford it. Eat out never. Go away never. Bills>income working 2 jobs. Sleep away camp? Hah. Shop in kosher stores for anything but meat and cheese? Nope. Super old used car. Etc etc. If I paid for 2 hrs of cleaning help a week, my family would need to skip meals. But no tomchei shabbos for us of course bc we make too much.

There are numbers that define the different financial classes as well as the poverty line. We can't be making six figures, sending to private schools, and crying poverty. It's laughable. But operationally poor is a thing and with the benefits and chesed orgs, the actual poor aren't any worse off than the operationally poor, and the idea of middle class is futile.

amother

↑ NeonPurple ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 3:10 pm

amother Chambray wrote:

200k after taxes is around 12k a month. Between mortgage, food, tuition and cleaning help it's practically gone.

Why do people place cleaning help as a necessity? Sorry but it's not equal to mortgage food and tuition. If you have no money then get rid of the cleaning help.

↑ Wolfsbane

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 3:12 pm

amother NeonPink wrote:

Or just distinguish between accepted Jewish needs (enjoying a family meal together on yom tov?!) And 3rd world country poverty of no clean water?

I don't think anyone on this thread is talking about the third-world country type of poverty.

amother

↑ Rainbow ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 3:16 pm

amother NeonPurple wrote:

Why do people place cleaning help as a necessity? Sorry but it's not equal to mortgage food and tuition. If you have no money then get rid of the cleaning help.

Because if you’re working and have kids and your dh isn’t willing to help clean bathrooms and iron clothing and do laundry, it’s nearly impossible to function normally without help.

In frum lifestyle we have double the amount of dishes and hand towels. Shabbos clothing that usually requires more TLC even if buying so called “non iron.”

Every Shabbos requires a lot of cleaning and laundry.

Forget about yom tov…

amother

↑ Diamond

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 3:17 pm

We don't own a home due to being poor. I am physically weak and have no help, yet have children. I need cleaning help like water is for you.
If someone makes 200k, while claiming its not enough, they're live way better off then those in poverty level bracket. Their definition of splurging is very different than a poor person.
Saying they aren't well off, means that they splurge yet don't realize it.

amother

↑ Stone ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 3:18 pm

Also if one has ten children or even six children one is making a decision that certain things will not be affordable even with a very high salary.

Maybe those children will not be able to have braces, go to camp or have fancy clothing. That is just a fact of life and is a decision that I have to assume people consciously make.

How is it a shock that if you have 10 children, send them to private school and camp, then even $200,000 is not enough for that lifestyle. 🤷‍♀️

And just to be clear, I am not saying people should or shouldn’t have 10 children but only that it is a choice and with that choice comes consequences including even paying for basics will be difficult let alone luxuries.

amother

↑ Seablue

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 3:20 pm

amother Rainbow wrote:

Lol I think ironing is a luxury. I would never spend time on that. Most shabbos stuff can be thrown in gentle cycle and hung dry.

By me the kids help clean the bathrooms and put their laundry away from age 3 or 4.

Sometimes you just really have to do without by necessity.

amother

↑ Rainbow ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 3:22 pm

amother Seablue wrote:

My kids don’t help with any of that. I’m lucky if they clean up the toys and keep their room neat. So it falls on me. For me cleaning help feels like a need (obviously a step down from food and shelter) not a luxury. Unless mental health and physical health is a luxury.

amother

↑ Molasses ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 3:25 pm

amother NeonPurple wrote:

Why do people place cleaning help as a necessity? Sorry but it's not equal to mortgage food and tuition. If you have no money then get rid of the cleaning help.

You obviously have relatively easy pregnancies and lots of koach in general. Count your blessings.

I think having a semi functional home is a need, not a necessity and when I can't do it myself....

amother

↑ Molasses ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 3:26 pm

amother Seablue wrote:

Some things really do need to be ironed. Shabbos shirts especially really need to be ironed or they look yuck. Also many dresses etc.

amother

↑ NeonPurple ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 3:28 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

You obviously have relatively easy pregnancies and lots of koach in general. Count your blessings.

I think having a semi functional home is a need, not a necessity and when I can't do it myself....

Ummm no I don't. But I can't afford cleaning help so I don't have it. My kids need food to eat. We don't need cleaning help.

amother

↑ NeonPurple ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 3:30 pm

amother Rainbow wrote:

I don't have cleaning help I work full time. I buy non iron clothing. I teach my kids how to help with laundry. If you have no money for it and it's cleaning help or food I choose food.

amother

↑ Rainbow ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 3:32 pm

amother NeonPurple wrote:

I don't have cleaning help I work full time. I buy non iron clothing. I teach my kids how to help with laundry. If you have no money for it and it's cleaning help or food I choose food.

I hear you and of course if I couldn’t afford it I would recruit dh to help a lot more…