For all those jealous of the poor—peaceful discussion please

amother

↑ Sunflower ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 7:29 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

Um... if you are in New York you are eligible for help to pay the electricity bill (I think it's called USF). And lol, I didn't own a car at the time so no car insurance!!!! Owning a car is a choice (especially in New York) just as much as a cleaning lady is.

First of all, it depends where you live in NY and how/where you commute. Some people do need a car. It's not a choice for some.

Second, take the random examples I used and substitute it for some other necessity such as food or shelter. My point still stands.

(BTW not all frum people live in NY.)

amother

↑ Molasses ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 7:31 pm

amother Sunflower wrote:

I didn't say all frum people live in New York. I was responding to amarettes post about a family living in New York.

New York has public transportation and of course, you always have two good feet. Of course it's a choice, just as much as a cleaning lady is a choice.

amother

↑ Pearl ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 7:31 pm

amother OP wrote:

And the pizza and ice cream stores always being full especially motzei shabbos also is very interesting to me.... We didn't have pizza since COVID so DH and I decided to after a long time get a slice for ourselves , well like I posted on a different thread 2 slices and a can of coke cost us almost 10 dollars.. we decided for the meantime it's not happening again...

Don't buy cans of soda or any drinks in a restaurant. Havent done that in over 25 years. Get tap water for free or bring the food home and use your own drinks. I have no pity for anyone who buys drinks at eateries.

amother

↑ Molasses ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 7:33 pm

amother Sunflower wrote:

Right. I think in the frum world it's a bit skewed as to true poverty vs low middle class vs middle class vs upper middle class incomes and lifestyles. Some people may place themselves in a certain group bec they are comparing themselves as to how they fall against their frum neighbors who are in another class. But they may not actually be truly poor or truly middle class if they would take that comparison out of the equation. And factors such as family size and support from parents can make things even more confusing as to where different families actually fall.

I don't agree. There are actually frum families living at the poverty level. Just because you dont know them (I do) doesnt mean that they dont exist. Look at some of the statistics for some frum communities if you don't believe me.

Although it's true that the frum community is very generous to their poor, bh. And people do get family help as well. (At the time I was talking about, we were eating most Shabbosim by parents and bringing home leftovers. And I also had family and friends that I could call in emergencies for rides.)

amother

↑ Steelblue

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 7:38 pm

Amarante wrote:

I don't know - I think they are more discussed theoretically than actually done.

In dealing with my family and neighbors who are elderly, the issue isn't paying for long term care in a nursing home.

First NO ONE wants to be in a nursing home if they can avoid it. They want to be able to stay in their home or in some comfortable retirement "hotel" for as long as possible.

The issue arises when elderly people need help but not on the level of needing skilled nursing care 24/7 like in a nursing home. The only way to do this unless there is family who can handle it is an assisted living facility (if they are fairly independent but not able to manage their shopping, cooking, cleaning, etc. OR full time home care attendants so they can stay at home OR even when they have gotten to the point where they need more help even in assisted living.

Neither Medicaid nor Medicare pays for assisted living OR for full time care attendants. Those are entirely funded by the person or their family in some way. A Medicaid Trust won't help because it isn't a question of Medicaid services.

At one time people got long term care insurance to cover this but there have been a lot of problems recently with this because the premiums got so high that people no longer could afford the premiums just at the point when they might have actually needed them.

In NY, Medicaid will cover assisted living programs (ALPs), but not assisted living facilities (ALFs).

https://www.health.ny.gov/heal.....s.htm

amother

↑ NeonPink ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 7:38 pm

Amarante wrote:

No I am asking what your definition of "poverty" is.

For a family that is larger then obviously a higher income would be needed.

My point is that people living in "poverty" don't get cleaning ladies so I am doubting that your income - adjusted for family size is actually 'real poverty".

You might "feel" you are in "real poverty" but if you can afford $50 a week for a cleaning lady then you are not in "real poverty".

People die from lack of food and from lack of heat. People don't die because they don't have a cleaning lady just like people don't die if they don't have a vacation away from home.

You deal with the stress in other ways - and yes obviously it is easier to purchase de-stressing things if one has money.

Defining poverty as having kids enrolled in Jewish schools paying tuition, paying medical bills, and buying modest clothing that fits for all members of the family including social requirements like dress shoes for shabbos instead of sandals.

I am not referring to the government poverty level but heart attacks and chronic stress are terrible even if people aren't dying of hunger.

Eta lack of heat or hot water due to appliances needing repair but no affordability results in the same experience.
Subsisting on beans and rice and potatoes to save on food costs results in poverty-level craziness even if you earn way above that. And no handouts are given to people in these situations.

amother

↑ Sunflower ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 7:42 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

Not all new Yorkers live (or work) inside the city first of all, and relying on public transportation or walking really isn't always an option.

I was the one who gave the car insurance example btw. But there are other necessities that are non-negotiable, that, as Amarante pointed out, people cannot physically survive without. Some people's salary goes entirely to those and they don't have an extra dime. It boggles my mind that people don't understand that, but it shouldn't. I remember being in school and being frustrated when we were expected to chip in money for other teachers baby gifts and whatnot. They didn't realize that some girls truly could not ask their parents for the $5 they expected everyone to chip in. Once I tried telling the girl in charge it was too much, and she got another teacher to yell at me. (This teacher was certainly not wealthy. But she just had no clue. To her $5 was not a big deal, so she didn't understand why some girls were balking. She thought I just had a bad attitude or something.) It's that cluelessness I see on some of these posts.

No, my family wasn't starving BH. (Even if we did eat pasta several times a week which that recent thread here about meat vs dairy suppers would have found scandalous and probably unhealthily frugal.) But we didn't have the money for a cleaning lady or for extras like teacher baby gifts. Even if my parents were stressed out.

↑ Trademark ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 7:45 pm

Amarante wrote:

First of all where in my posts did I mention poverty?

BH I'm not poor. BH I can afford cleaning help and extras.

I was talking about other people and how judgmental some posters are about others spending more than the bare minimum. I don't understand the mentality that if you are poor you have to live in misery.

How many people in the US die of hunger? How many people in the frum community die from hunger? You know that obesity is often a poor people problem because they can only afford fast food?

Since when is poverty defined by how many people die?

I find people speak here often in extreme terms.

You compare before to a family of four in the non-Jewish world. Sending to private school is a real luxury, so according to your logic no frum people are poor.

I once heard a great line. It's different being poor in Russia, in Israel, or the US. If it's bashert for me to be poor, Hashem should let me be poor in America.

amother

↑ NeonPurple ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 7:48 pm

Trademark wrote:

You don't understand the mentality that if you are poor you have to live in misery? Be happy you aren't that poor. I grew up like that. Literally no money for anything extra. So my parents should have paid for a cleaning lady and then have no money for food? I really don't understand your point. Do you think they wanted to be miserably poor? Or it was their fault? That comment is just very judgemental and condescending.

↑ Trademark ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 7:50 pm

amother NeonPurple wrote:

You misunderstood my point.

I wasn't talking to poor people.

I was talking to the posters who have the mentality of how dare she spend on cleaning help or a coffee if she doesn't have extra money?

amother

↑ Molasses ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 7:50 pm

Trademark wrote:

I once heard a great line. It's different being poor in Russia, in Israel, or the US. If it's bashert for me to be poor, Hashem should let me be poor in America.

Thank you for posting this, I cant like enough!!!!!

True starvation level hunger is bh not a problem in the US.

amother

↑ Sunflower ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 7:52 pm

Trademark wrote:

You made so many assumptions in your posts that's it's clear you really just don't understand what's it's like not to have extra money. Believe me. Most people who forgo cleaning help would love to have it. But they can't. So they don't. If someone can scrape up the money for a cleaner, then they do have a bit of money for extras. Some simply can't. It doesn't matter how they prioritize it. They just can't.
It's like when people quote Reb Braunstein a"h (who I greatly respect) who advised people to serve more tuna so they can then get more cleaning help. Well, guess what? Some people are already serving tuna instead of chicken or meat and they still can't pay for a cleaning lady.

amother

↑ NeonPurple ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 7:52 pm

Trademark wrote:

You misunderstood my point.

I wasn't talking to poor people.

I was talking to the posters who have the mentality of how dare she spend on cleaning help or a coffee if she doesn't have extra money?

Well it's kind of true. If you have no money for food don't have cleaning help. My parents had no extra money and so we didn't have cleaning help. I doubt we would have appreciated if they said no dinner this week but someone will clean the floors for us instead.

↑ Trademark ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 7:54 pm

amother NeonPurple wrote:

What's kind of true?

All I'm saying is that others shouldn't judge poor people and their spending habits and if they splurge on little things once in a while.

↑ Trademark ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 7:57 pm

amother Sunflower wrote:

Where in my post did I make assumptions about poor people?

I said others shouldn't judge others spending habits.

I'm not telling poor people how to prioritize, just that people should not judge how (poor) people prioritize.

amother

↑ Molasses ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 7:59 pm

Just to clarify - poverty in the United States means food stamps, EIC, etc... poverty in the United States means not being able to buy rimless glasses ( Surprised

) , eating pasta for dinner and clothing from hand me downs or the Salvation army.

Obviously there are different levels of poor and I'm not minimizing it, but I personally know quite a few families who's incomes are well within the poverty level yet they manage to be well dressed, well fed, and live in large homes. Its possible there are other families living in poverty who don't live as well, but they probably have some other underlying dysfunction which gets in the way of living normally. For these families, its truly not just poverty.

ETA: Its really hard even to be even lower middle class/program poor in the frum community, when we need to pay for so many expenses such as tuition, and yes it does seem as though everybody is able to swing everything and we are the only ones who can't. Even if we have enough to eat.

#BestBubby ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 8:01 pm

amother Darkblue wrote:

It makes me sad when people can't work more because of losing benefits. Everyone loses out.
.

Government deliberately traps people in poverty with benefits that are hard to give up, so people deliberately work less, turn down raises...

The more people dependant on Government handouts, the more Power Government has.

amother

↑ Sunflower ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 8:02 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

I said, some.
I know some people truly living at the poverty level. No, they aren't literally starving in America. But every penny goes to basic living expenses. They aren't choosing to live as frugally as they can, they have to. (BTW not everyone has family help. Or the help goes towards their basic living expenses.)

I also know people who say they are poor and have no money. But they actually aren't at the same level as the poverty level group. But compared to their middle class or upper middle class friends, they feel poor. So they may be able to splurge on coffee or hire a cleaning lady.

amother

↑ Sunflower ↓

Wed, Jan 11 2023, 8:09 pm

Trademark wrote:

I didn't write any posts judging those who hire cleaning ladies. My posts were explaining why some people can't. Because there is poor and then there is "poor." And anyone who is truly poor or who has ever been truly poor knows the difference. And they know the truth, when a person is really poor they don't splurge on anything. And if you are truly poor then, yes. A cleaning lady is a splurge. If you aren't truly poor then you can shift things around to cover it.
It goes back to the tuna vs chicken dinner. Sure, if you usually serve chicken by all means cut back and eat tuna to be able to afford your cleaner. But if you were anyways only eating tuna, you don't have where to cut back. So you keep eating tuna and you do your own cleaning.
And that doesn't make you unhealthy or frugal or making choices to be so. That's just you doing what you need to do.