For all those jealous of the poor—peaceful discussion please

amother

↑ Molasses ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 6:34 pm

amother NeonPurple wrote:

I don't have cleaning help I work full time. I buy non iron clothing. I teach my kids how to help with laundry. If you have no money for it and it's cleaning help or food I choose food.

So basically you're ok living in a pig sty??? Oookay....

amother

↑ Rainbow ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 6:38 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

So basically you're ok living in a pig sty??? Oookay....

This is really rude and insensitive. I find cleaning help necessary for me but obviously if I had to choose between food, Jewish school, and cleaning help, you know what would be the first to go. You’re lucky you’re not making that choice

amother

↑ Buttercup ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 6:39 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

So basically you're ok living in a pig sty??? Oookay....

Head banging emoji.

Are you the one who goes around making people feel like utter trash if they can't live up to your gashmius standards?

No she doesn't live in a pig sty. She functions as well as she can without a cleaning lady.

Unless you're going to step up and pay for her help you should just keep your mouth shut.

amother

↑ NeonPink ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 6:41 pm

amother Seablue wrote:

Poverty is literally defined by the federal government. This thread isn't about being jealous of the poor, it's about how an OP who's on handout programs is living in fantasy land, thinking the middle class live luxury lives. Nope, we may be defined as middle class, but we're operationally poor.

And to those on programs who have cleaning help even 2 hrs a week, good for you, I wouldn't be able to afford it. Eat out never. Go away never. Bills>income working 2 jobs. Sleep away camp? Hah. Shop in kosher stores for anything but meat and cheese? Nope. Super old used car. Etc etc. If I paid for 2 hrs of cleaning help a week, my family would need to skip meals. But no tomchei shabbos for us of course bc we make too much.

There are numbers that define the different financial classes as well as the poverty line. We can't be making six figures, sending to private schools, and crying poverty. It's laughable. But operationally poor is a thing and with the benefits and chesed orgs, the actual poor aren't any worse off than the operationally poor, and the idea of middle class is futile.

Right.
We agree. You say operationally poor I say poor.
Actually, the poor are better off in certain ways is the point people are trying to make.
There is no middle class. There's worse poor and better poor. One is stressing about shoes the other about a palate extender. Both aren't eating chicken.

Eta bad example. Both are stressing about shoes but the better poor is also stressing about a palate extender while the poorer poor gets it for free.

Who is truly poorer? Is poorer a word? Poor poor poorer poor.

amother

↑ Molasses ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 6:47 pm

amother Emerald wrote:

How did you get that from her post? What in the world?

Um, if you don't have energy to clean and you don't have a cleaning lady... what do you think will happen? It will magically clean itself?

I hate to break it to you, but having koach is also a bracha and not something to be taken for granted.

amother

↑ Molasses ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 6:49 pm

amother Buttercup wrote:

If gashmiyus standards means cleaning your bathroom once a week and washing your floors once a week, then yes. I do think that is the minimum.

People were calling me out because I paid for two hours of cleaning help a week at a point when we were making 35k a year with four kids. Ok, that's what would have happened if those two hours didn't come. Yes, I think having bathrooms and floors washed once a week is on the same level as food.

amother

↑ Buttercup ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 6:57 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

BH I manage to wash bathrooms and floors more than once a week without cleaning help.

If you can't then you can't. No need to go around accusing other people of living in pig styes. Those words are very hurtful.

amother

↑ Molasses ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 6:59 pm

amother Buttercup wrote:

Like I said, thank G-d you have the energy to do that, not everyone can. Koach is just as much a gift as money.

But seriously, not washing bathrooms or floors ever is just not ok. I'm sorry, but yes, it would be a pigsty (was talking about myself here).

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 7:02 pm

amother Pearl wrote:

Real poverty means that your family members are going to bed hungry and you are buying your clothes at the salvation army.

But you understand that is almost impossible though for the end of the day food stamps do cover for bread and some food , even if that is not enough, there are pantries and food hemachs biker cholim etc.. maybe in the past real poverty was related to food (and maybe today there may be a few that unfortunately also are in that situation..) I feel though that real poverty today classified as not being able to pay the other bills (rent electric heat etc...) And other necessities that are NEEDED to live day to day life.. so going to bed hungry is almost not really practical (and I wish that no one ever go through such a period )
But not having electric , being kicked out and needing a place , only finding an apartment which is not safe because of affordability etc... Is something that is more common these days..
As a side note it's just interesting to note that almost no one is excluded from having a free smartphone while in the days when it came out it was considered to be the biggest luxury.. I just wonder what things practically/theoridically would or would the govt not offer and the reason behind it..

amother

↑ Buttercup

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 7:06 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

Relax. I don't begrudge you 2 hours of cleaning help. .

But please lose the judgmental attitude. If someone else prioritizes food over clean floors no need to accuse them of living like pigs.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 7:09 pm

Trademark wrote:

You misunderstood my point.

I wasn't talking to poor people.

I was talking to the posters who have the mentality of how dare she spend on cleaning help or a coffee if she doesn't have extra money?

well the point is if the rent bill won't be paid up , same as gas electric etc and will shut down yes that is my question how do people afford the things. If you tell me they have no choice (which I think someone mentioned) or they just rely that hashem will provide then I hear..

amother

↑ Rainbow ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 7:15 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

I can prove to you that it’s not the same: go a year without food and you will not be alive. Go a year without cleaning and you will survive.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 7:20 pm

amother NeonPink wrote:

Defining poverty as having kids enrolled in Jewish schools paying tuition, paying medical bills, and buying modest clothing that fits for all members of the family including social requirements like dress shoes for shabbos instead of sandals.

I am not referring to the government poverty level but heart attacks and chronic stress are terrible even if people aren't dying of hunger.

Eta lack of heat or hot water due to appliances needing repair but no affordability results in the same experience.
Subsisting on beans and rice and potatoes to save on food costs results in poverty-level craziness even if you earn way above that. And no handouts are given to people in these situations.

this

amother

↑ NeonPurple ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 7:33 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

So basically you're ok living in a pig sty??? Oookay....

How did u deduce that I live in a pigsty? I'm not a slob. And neither are my kids. We pick up after ourselves and clean on our own. Putting laundry in a washing machine and turning it on doesn't take too much effort. Pressing the on button for a robot vacuum isn't too hard. Wiping down surfaces with lysol wipes is pretty simple too.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 7:49 pm

amother NeonPink wrote:

Ask around. It's a subjective opinion. What you consider a non-luxury is a luxury for the next person.

Where's the line?

So I don't know the exact answer , but in my opinion if it's something that gets in the way of doing what Jewish people need to do to keep mitzvos...(someone else wrote it better than me) then it's a non luxury
Jewish school is non luxury
A menorah is not a luxury
Neither is a succah
Pizza Motzei Shabbos is a luxury
Mishloach manos I am still not sure where to draw the line ..
Donuts on chanuka when prices are super high is a luxury
Scrambled eggs at home is not a luxury..

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 7:51 pm

amother Seablue wrote:

it was a spinoff of the post where someone mentioned the poor get richer...

amother

↑ Pearl ↓

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 7:53 pm

Trademark wrote:

This (extreme) attitude is exactly what I'm referring to.

And in my opinion it is not extreme at all. You can get tap water for free. And the soda and drinks you get at the restaurant are the exact same you can get at the grocery store for a 1/5 of the price. It's not like the meal which you cannot duplicate at home.