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Forum
-> Household Management
-> Finances
Is it worth going from middle class to poor
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| yes |
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19% |
[ 33 ] |
| no |
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80% |
[ 139 ] |
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| Total Votes : 172 |
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amother
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 Wed, Jan 11 2023, 9:53 pm
| amother Molasses wrote: | | Even when I was living in real poverty, I found the money for two hours a week. Sanity is worth money too.... |
Exactly. This is something that is a necessity for many. And 2 hours a week is a joke.
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amother
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Wed, Jan 11 2023, 9:56 pm
| amother Molasses wrote: | | Even when I was living in real poverty, I found the money for two hours a week. Sanity is worth money too.... |
To me it would be more stressful paying for cleaning help when I knew I didn't have the money for it. But to each their own...
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Amarante
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Wed, Jan 11 2023, 9:58 pm
| amother Molasses wrote: | You're right, I was thinking of revocable trusts , which I have now realized is useless for Medicaid.
I'm not sure why everyone is busy touting trusts for Medicaid, it seems really risky plus the idea that you lose control of your assets... I really don't understand why people think this is such a great option. |
I don't know - I think they are more discussed theoretically than actually done.
In dealing with my family and neighbors who are elderly, the issue isn't paying for long term care in a nursing home.
First NO ONE wants to be in a nursing home if they can avoid it. They want to be able to stay in their home or in some comfortable retirement "hotel" for as long as possible.
The issue arises when elderly people need help but not on the level of needing skilled nursing care 24/7 like in a nursing home. The only way to do this unless there is family who can handle it is an assisted living facility (if they are fairly independent but not able to manage their shopping, cooking, cleaning, etc. OR full time home care attendants so they can stay at home OR even when they have gotten to the point where they need more help even in assisted living.
Neither Medicaid nor Medicare pays for assisted living OR for full time care attendants. Those are entirely funded by the person or their family in some way. A Medicaid Trust won't help because it isn't a question of Medicaid services.
At one time people got long term care insurance to cover this but there have been a lot of problems recently with this because the premiums got so high that people no longer could afford the premiums just at the point when they might have actually needed them.
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amother
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Wed, Jan 11 2023, 10:02 pm
| amother Orange wrote: | | Exactly. This is something that is a necessity for many. And 2 hours a week is a joke. |
If you truly don't have an extra dime to spare, you don't have the $30 per week (120 per month). You just don't. If it's that or having the electricity cut off bec you can't pay the bill, or not being able to pay your car insurance or whatever, you can't swing it. Period.
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Trademark
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Wed, Jan 11 2023, 10:03 pm
| amother NeonPink wrote: | | What if they have a nervous breakdown? It'll just be another medical bill only that much more expensive. |
Exactly, most people need a little joy in their life, splurge on a coffee occasionally, need a little cleaning help to save their sanity. These are not luxuries for many people.
I'm not talking about goin into debt for a vacation to Florida.
Stressing about every penny is not healthy.
I'm not a spender at all, and careful with my finances, but I strongly believe that every person needs to treat themselves once in a while otherwise you can burn out quickly.
Yes hishtadlus and responsibility has a place, but sometimes you need to let go and let God.
(I'm not talking for posters that feel that the best thing for them is to be extremely frugal, but the judgement of others is unbelievable, seriously you judge busy jewish mothers of large families for having some cleaning help.)
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Amarante
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Wed, Jan 11 2023, 10:03 pm
| amother Molasses wrote: | | Even when I was living in real poverty, I found the money for two hours a week. Sanity is worth money too.... |
We must have very different definitions of "real poverty" because most people living in real poverty would not have an extra $54 for cleaning help.
Perhaps there is some kind of disconnect where people *think* they are poor because they can't afford everything they want.
Not trying to be snarky but I don't know any budget which includes cleaning help weekly as an essential - it is considered to be discretionary spending.
Poverty in New York City for a family of four would be about $32,000 - adjust that if you have more children. I very much doubt that anyone making that low an income for their family is hiring cleaning ladies.
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amother
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Wed, Jan 11 2023, 10:09 pm
| Amarante wrote: | We must have very different definitions of "real poverty" because most people living in real poverty would not have an extra $54 for cleaning help.
Perhaps there is some kind of disconnect where people *think* they are poor because they can't afford everything they want.
Not trying to be snarky but I don't know any budget which includes cleaning help weekly as an essential - it is considered to be discretionary spending.
Poverty in New York City for a family of four would be about $32,000 - adjust that if you have more children. I very much doubt that anyone making that low an income for their family is hiring cleaning ladies. | yes but for a Jewish family it could be more than that.
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Trademark
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Wed, Jan 11 2023, 10:12 pm
| Amarante wrote: | We must have very different definitions of "real poverty" because most people living in real poverty would not have an extra $54 for cleaning help.
Perhaps there is some kind of disconnect where people *think* they are poor because they can't afford everything they want.
Not trying to be snarky but I don't know any budget which includes cleaning help weekly as an essential - it is considered to be discretionary spending.
Poverty in New York City for a family of four would be about $32,000 - adjust that if you have more children. I very much doubt that anyone making that low an income for their family is hiring cleaning ladies. |
You're comparing a family of four to the large families in our community?
We have very different needs.
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amother
Offwhite
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Wed, Jan 11 2023, 10:13 pm
| Amarante wrote: | I don't know - I think they are more discussed theoretically than actually done.
In dealing with my family and neighbors who are elderly, the issue isn't paying for long term care in a nursing home.
First NO ONE wants to be in a nursing home if they can avoid it. They want to be able to stay in their home or in some comfortable retirement "hotel" for as long as possible.
The issue arises when elderly people need help but not on the level of needing skilled nursing care 24/7 like in a nursing home. The only way to do this unless there is family who can handle it is an assisted living facility (if they are fairly independent but not able to manage their shopping, cooking, cleaning, etc. OR full time home care attendants so they can stay at home OR even when they have gotten to the point where they need more help even in assisted living.
Neither Medicaid nor Medicare pays for assisted living OR for full time care attendants. Those are entirely funded by the person or their family in some way. A Medicaid Trust won't help because it isn't a question of Medicaid services.
At one time people got long term care insurance to cover this but there have been a lot of problems recently with this because the premiums got so high that people no longer could afford the premiums just at the point when they might have actually needed them. |
Actually, in New York, Medicaid does pay for home care. And if you really need full time aides you can get it by appealing. So this is where the trust would come in. In many cases, it pays because the aides are a lot of money and Medicaid covers it.
I do think I heard that only New York provides this. NY has a ridiculous Medicaid budget.
Working in the industry I have seen many many people go with trusts.
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amother
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Wed, Jan 11 2023, 10:18 pm
| Amarante wrote: | We must have very different definitions of "real poverty" because most people living in real poverty would not have an extra $54 for cleaning help.
Perhaps there is some kind of disconnect where people *think* they are poor because they can't afford everything they want.
Not trying to be snarky but I don't know any budget which includes cleaning help weekly as an essential - it is considered to be discretionary spending.
Poverty in New York City for a family of four would be about $32,000 - adjust that if you have more children. I very much doubt that anyone making that low an income for their family is hiring cleaning ladies. |
Right, I had more children and we were making just a few dollars above that. Yes, I did get someone for two hours a week.
Btw, on that income level people are eligible for the following programs:
Food stamps, Medicaid, section eight, WIC, heap/usf, earned income credit and refundable child tax credits - it all adds up. It's not living the rich life by any means but it ends up being a lot more than $32,000 at the end.
I think that was the point of this thread....
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amother
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Wed, Jan 11 2023, 10:19 pm
| Trademark wrote: | Exactly, most people need a little joy in their life, splurge on a coffee occasionally, need a little cleaning help to save their sanity. These are not luxuries for many people.
I'm not talking about goin into debt for a vacation to Florida.
Stressing about every penny is not healthy.
I'm not a spender at all, and careful with my finances, but I strongly believe that every person needs to treat themselves once in a while otherwise you can burn out quickly.
Yes hishtadlus and responsibility has a place, but sometimes you need to let go and let God.
(I'm not talking for posters that feel that the best thing for them is to be extremely frugal, but the judgement of others is unbelievable, seriously you judge busy jewish mothers of large families for having some cleaning help.) |
It's not being judgmental. It's about trying to explain that some people truly CANNOT afford a splurge, whether it's a $2 coffee a week or a cleaning lady for 2 hours a week. Even if they burn out.
Your post is actually judging those people unfavorably, making assumptions about their reasons for being frugal. Try to understand: they have no choice. They don't have anywhere else to cut back.
Thankfully I don't live that life now, but that's how I grew up. So I get it. I don't care if people pay for a full time live in housekeeper, it's none of my business and I am glad they can afford it. But I find it quite troubling that you think it's ok to judge and put down those explaining they have no choice but to live within their means and therefore forgo outside help by more or less saying its just stingy and judgy when they say that some people can't afford it. Because that's the stark honest truth. Some can't.
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Amarante
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Wed, Jan 11 2023, 10:19 pm
| Trademark wrote: | You're comparing a family of four to the large families in our community?
We have very different needs. |
No I am asking what your definition of "poverty" is.
For a family that is larger then obviously a higher income would be needed.
My point is that people living in "poverty" don't get cleaning ladies so I am doubting that your income - adjusted for family size is actually 'real poverty".
You might "feel" you are in "real poverty" but if you can afford $50 a week for a cleaning lady then you are not in "real poverty".
People die from lack of food and from lack of heat. People don't die because they don't have a cleaning lady just like people don't die if they don't have a vacation away from home.
You deal with the stress in other ways - and yes obviously it is easier to purchase de-stressing things if one has money.
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amother
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Wed, Jan 11 2023, 10:21 pm
| amother Sunflower wrote: | | If you truly don't have an extra dime to spare, you don't have the $30 per week (120 per month). You just don't. If it's that or having the electricity cut off bec you can't pay the bill, or not being able to pay your car insurance or whatever, you can't swing it. Period. |
Um... if you are in New York you are eligible for help to pay the electricity bill (I think it's called USF). And lol, I didn't own a car at the time so no car insurance!!!! Owning a car is a choice (especially in New York) just as much as a cleaning lady is.
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amother
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Wed, Jan 11 2023, 10:22 pm
I have a daughter with a disability. When we were poor we qualified for SSI. Now we make too much money.
The SSI check was a lump sum every month we could use for HER needs. If she needed any type of equipment, a special toy, educational materials, a tutor--whatever would help her, we could get. Now we don't have that money and can't afford to cover it ourselves. So that means we just do without.
Is it fair that my daughter should lose out just becuase we make above the limit to qualify for SSI?
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amother
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Wed, Jan 11 2023, 10:23 pm
Medicaid is a combined state and federal system so the rules do very from state to state.
Just as a PSA, Medicaid will be implementing a lookback period for at home care in NY, but hasn't done so yet. Now would be the time to consult an attorney if you or your loved ones might be thinking of applying for home care in the near future.
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amother
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Wed, Jan 11 2023, 10:24 pm
| Amarante wrote: | No I am asking what your definition of "poverty" is.
For a family that is larger then obviously a higher income would be needed.
My point is that people living in "poverty" don't get cleaning ladies so I am doubting that your income - adjusted for family size is actually 'real poverty".
You might "feel" you are in "real poverty" but if you can afford $50 a week for a cleaning lady then you are not in "real poverty".
People die from lack of food and from lack of heat. People don't die because they don't have a cleaning lady just like people don't die if they don't have a vacation away from home.
You deal with the stress in other ways - and yes obviously it is easier to purchase de-stressing things if one has money. |
Right. I think in the frum world it's a bit skewed as to true poverty vs low middle class vs middle class vs upper middle class incomes and lifestyles. Some people may place themselves in a certain group bec they are comparing themselves as to how they fall against their frum neighbors who are in another class. But they may not actually be truly poor or truly middle class if they would take that comparison out of the equation. And factors such as family size and support from parents can make things even more confusing as to where different families actually fall.
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amother
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Wed, Jan 11 2023, 10:25 pm
| amother Molasses wrote: | You're right, I was thinking of revocable trusts , which I have now realized is useless for Medicaid.
I'm not sure why everyone is busy touting trusts for Medicaid, it seems really risky plus the idea that you lose control of your assets... I really don't understand why people think this is such a great option. |
Because in NYC, a nursing home can cost $14,000 a month. Gotta weigh the pros and cons.
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amother
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Wed, Jan 11 2023, 10:28 pm
| amother Sunflower wrote: | | Right. I think in the frum world it's a bit skewed as to true poverty vs low middle class vs middle class vs upper middle class incomes and lifestyles. Some people may place themselves in a certain group bec they are comparing themselves as to how they fall against their frum neighbors who are in another class. But they may not actually be truly poor or truly middle class if they would take that comparison out of the equation. And factors such as family size and support from parents can make things even more confusing as to where different families actually fall. |
True. We made an income this year that would place is squarely in middle class maybe even upper middle but we are living paycheck to paycheck after putting away savings and tzedakah
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