I don't know if Tamiri knows, but, yes I live on the fourth floor, in the summer as well as the winter. BH.
I have a different structure to my day now my older kids are older, but, yes, wow, I used to dress everyone (um, weren't they dressed before?), pack tissues and diapers and wipes and toys for the sand and water and snacks and sometimes sandwiches too and go to the park most summer afternoons.
They can be dressed by 10 am... and completely dirty by 1 pm. the 3 youngest need to be changed again. and meantime ,the 3 older ones have made a mess in some part of the house that you need to fix... and while you fix it, child #4 had gotten dirty again. and while youre putting on your shaitel, child #3 has hit child #5. Child #6 has just spilled a box of cheerios....
Do this every day for 10 weeks. Bellevue, here we come...
MaBelleVie wrote:
Are you saying that you would ask for tzedakah to send them to camp while you stayed home, if you could not otherwise afford to do so?
Probably not... but I *would* go into debt to stay sane.
ora_43 wrote:
Mama Bear, it can become a self-sustaining problem though. Because the kids are bored and can't entertain themselves, they get sent to activities or camp or whatever. But then because they're used to being constantly entertained, they can't entertain themselves and find normal life boring.
Not that kids should be expected to play indoors all day.
I really don't get what's so hard in a normal situation about getting on a bus and going somewhere. Most of what you describe is just everyday life - don't you dress the kids every day? Bring them out of the house? Field requests, mediate fights?
Maybe if the nearest park were 20 minutes or more away by bus. Personally I'd consider an apartment like that simply not liveable.
Nope, this isnt a normal day; on a normal day, you dress the kids go downstairs and put them on the school bus. Then you come home, and youre only home with your youngest. and you can actually *do* stuff. Clean up. Cook. Run errands. The kids come home at 4 pm and youre not a dishrag.
Sure, there are playgrounds nearby. but it's boiling hot in the summer during the day. all the musseums and indoor attractions, besides costing money, are bus rides away.
I'm trying to understand something. What some of you are describing doesn't make sense in terms of the larger picture. You are trying to say that you are living with a lot of kids in a tiny walk up apartment with no air conditioning and no place for your kids to play, right? You are saying that the only thing that keeps you sane during the year is that they are out of the house in school or in gan or in cheder. You are saying that everyone else is in camp or in the country or whatever and therefore your kids will have no one to play with. And so, even if you can't afford camp and are a SAHM it's a necessity for your sanity and for your kids. And that you will take zedoko for camp if you have to otherwise you can't survive.
Do I get the picture?
If so then please answer a few things. If someone would write that they are living in an area where everyone goes abroad on trips four times a year and that everyone wears designer clothing and everyone's kids have their own personal computers and DVDs and that everyone elses kids at sixteen and a half are bought a car by their grandparents...and you can't afford that and your kids are miserable and you are miserable as a result...would you also ask for zedoko then to live like your neighbors? Is that the kind of advice that people would give here? Or would they maybe say, then if you are so different than your surroundings because of your economics, maybe it would be an idea for you to move to an area where people are more like you?
I can't believe that EVERYONE in the city sends their kids to camp even if they can't afford it. If so, then go, find the sucker who will pay for it for you, just like the others find suckers to pay for it for them, and send your kids.
But I'm sure not going to be that sucker. Because if you want something then pay for it. Necessilty is food, water, shelter, basic clothing and basic education, basic religious needs, basic health care. I don't see camp falling into any of those categories.
If you can't cope with four kids under the age of six in a fourth floor walkup then either move to the kind of community which is cheaper and where you can get support from friends and neighbors or space your kids better.
Basically what people here are saying is that they are going to live as they darn please and procreate as they darn please and live where they darn please and work or not work as they darn please but they are also going to demand that others support them in a lifestyle that they darned decided that they must have even though it is not commensurate with their income.
Doesn't work with me. Sorry.
And Isramom, if someone can afford camp, fine. If not, nothing wrong with your kids spending every morning or afternoon when it's hot, sitting in an air conditioned room or in a room with a fan, in front of a computer playing clean computer games. If you have a big family then the kids are socializing full time with their brothers and sisters. If you are a SAHM then you should have the time to play with them, have creative activites etc.
And you know? The purpose of summer vacation in the first place was agricultural. It was late planting and basically harvest time and that's when kids on farms had to take off in order to help. Aren't there things which have to be done around the house? That's what summer vacation is for, getting things done.
If someone things that a SAHM's purpose is to sit at home to nurse the new baby each time and have someone else take care of the other kids, that I don't get. That sounds incredibly spoiled. Because the SAHMs that I knew from my generation had the emphasis on the last word. Mother. They were full time mother and homemaker and their kids were involved with them in every step. They cooked and cleaned with their kids, and used it to teach them. But they also didn't have gigantic families. Five was really tops among most of us and spaced out. Everyone lauds big families here and that's a personal decision, but when I see big families which are basically farmed out because momma is always busy with the newest baby...something doesn't jive. If the purpose of making babies is just to make more and more...that's one thing. But if the idea is to raise them...well again if you can afford help, and camp is considered "help" here, then fine, but if you can't?
Gosh if only kids could read their parent's positivity about being around them all day. How in the world do some of you survive the few weeks camp and school are both not in session? And ironically these are prolific posters who can't juggle kids and making dinner but do fine with frequent posting and making dinner.
Mama Bear I understand what you are saying. But what about those mothers who send their kids to school on the bus and go upstairs and have a three month old baby and also a seventeen month old and also a less than three year old? That's also very common among the charedi families I know. Three kids at home under three. What does such a mother do every day of the year?
Mothers who can't cope with their kids hitting each other and dropping cheerios all over the place have a real problem and not just during the summer. Didn't anyone tell you what motherhood is all about? But you know, it is possible to discipline your children so that they aren't like that. Yes they play and get dirty and have accidents and you have to change diapers, but for mothers who cant cope with mess and hitting they teach not to in the first place, stick to it, and their kids are a lot better mannered and then such mothers cope better. And Camp or rather sending your kids out of the house isn't the solution to that.
Are you saying that you would ask for tzedakah to send them to camp while you stayed home, if you could not otherwise afford to do so?
Probably not... but I *would* go into debt to stay sane..[/quote]
Well, that's what the debate is about. No one is denying that there often an all-around benefit to having kids in camp. The problem is when someone defines it as a need to the extent that she will expect someone's tzedaka dollars to pay for it.
Kids need schedules. Yes, I think Israel should subsidize kaitana for families that can't afford it. Saner families are better for the medina in the long run. If school is considered good for kids for 10 months, what makes no school in the summer good for kids ?
Sorry, but personally I think large familes that raise many kids with good middos are good for Israel. Even if they aren't rich.
You don't have to be "rich" to have a large family, but to have a large family and then count on zedoko to raise them the way a person wants to raise her kids, that I disagree with in full. Sorry. Demography for the sake of demography never works in the long run. If a person can't afford their family, they should stop when they can afford to still pay for their kids.
But that isn't the issue. We aren't talking about what "should" be we are talking about what "is". And what "is" is that camp not here and not in America, is not a necessity. There are enough kids who don't go to camp that mothers who really need alone time can make a free"kaytana" with other mothers in the neighborhood to have one free day a week when their kids are elsewhere. A co-op kaytana. And if there are no other mothers at home who don't send their kids to camp? Well then that's a problem. But I would venture to guess that that same mother has other issues like that all year long with her neighbor's kids who can afford more, do more, and have more than her kids. So that's not new.
And who said that school is good for 10 months? School is little more than a babysitter sometimes and under such circumstances no big deal if a kids misses some school. Tell me, your house doesn't need painting? Your closets don't need organizing? You don't have windowboxes which should be planted? Who says that books should only be taken out and dusted erev pesach, why not during the summer? Keep the kids busy with WORK.
Friedasima - It's not that there are SAHMs who view their job as just making babies and just taking care of the babies. It's that different kids need different things at different ages. A woman can believe that her younger children need her home with them for their own good but at the same time think that her older children need to be out of the house for their own good. It's not about only taking care of the baby and ignoring the older kids.
I'm not saying I support this view or not (it all depends on the kid and family, etc). Just explaining why IMO there's no contradiction between a woman thinking she should stay home for her family's sake, and thinking that some (not all) of her kids should be in camp if at all possible.
Mama Bear - another reason to live in Israel, I guess. Even in the slums here there are playgrounds within walking distance. Broken, boring playgrounds sometimes, with the occasional drunk on a bench, but still, play spaces where kids can gather to run around.
Playgrounds aren't a middle of the day activity anywhere in the summer, even in the suburbs. If you time it right you can get your kids' early-morning energy out, then bring them home for an activity, then lunch and if you're lucky naptime, then maybe a playdate, then the playground again - so that way there's enough outdoor time even though 10am-4pm is too hot to play outside.
Isramom - why can't it be good for kids to have structure sometimes, and good for them to have no structure other times? Good to be at school with friends sometimes, and good to be home with family at others?
I don't think a subsidy for kaitana should come before a whole bunch of other needs, although in theory I think it'd be a nice idea for families where both parents work, a parent is ill or absent, or whatever else. Not for normal families with an at-home parent though (for one thing, because normal families will benefit from some time together, for another, because if everyone's in kaitana, who will be in the park to play with my kids?).
FTR, I'm keeping my kids home this summer. THey are 3, 1.5 and newborn. Everyone has been telling me I'm crazy and they should go to camp, but I realize that if I keep them home and do fun things iwth them myself, then I can stay home longer. In a few weeks my paid maternity ends and if I send the kids to camp it will be really expensive. Why would I do that?
(Never mind we are having a lot of fun this summer doing mainly free things plus gas...)
You are my hero, Saw. I was a SAHM as you know, and I paid the financial price. My choice. Even with a healthy DH income, we just had to make choices and camp on a regular basis for more than one kid at a time just wasn't one of them.
Take your kids up rt 17 to the State Park (I can't remember it's name) fab lake and beach, for nearly free (an annual membership was $35 IIRC when we lived there, for all the state parks). Or Shepherd's Lake near Monsey. To me, it's more work to get them out of the house in the am than to just wake up, smell the roses, and do whatever.
my kids school requires camp with learning or no school in september. I cannot really afford it, but I find the money because otherwise, there is no school. to top it all off, we work from home, if the kids are home and we cant work, we cant feed them. You dont realize all the issues involved, and its unfair to call All SAHM with kid in camp spoiled.
I agree with you completely. it is unfair to call all stay at home moms, or moms with kids in camp spoiled.
my DC is waay to young for camp, but when he gets to that age, even if I cant afford it, I will find a way to send him. maybe he will help chip in, or by any other way.
and in my opinion, camp is not a vacation so spoiled mothers can get out of spending time with their kids.
camp is for the KIDS! and every kid lucky enough to have gone to camp will agree
Can you imagine that there are kids who prefer to stay home than go to camp? There are. But it really depends on what you offer them at home.
I agree that structure is good but depends what structure. You get up to daven. But hey, our neighborhood has an 8 AM minyan for the bochurim who are home during the summer and want to sleep late. Sometimes on a friday when I am home and going to the bakery or whatever at 8:20 I see them shlepping themselves to shul eyes half closed...but it's better than during the year when they have to be at minyan at 6 here or at 7 at school...
however what comes after that davening is up to them. And there is a lot that can be done without a camp. How come there are myriads of mothers here who homeschool and survive? With four and five small kids? why can't you set up a half day learning program at home during the summer? There is so much to learn over the computer, with discs, on television, using whatever resources you have at your disposal.
There is so much to read. There is so much to do. There is so much to learn in terms of doing around the house, learning skills, tasks and chores. Five year old girls can learn to sew and crochet and knit and then can have hours and hours of fun doing it.
What ever happened to sitting with friends and making lanyards? What ever happened to writing a coloring book for little kids? If you have a two and a half year old with a very limited attention span, are you talking about sending a child of that age to camp??? I doubt it.
Ora I agree with you and wrote what I did in response to the mothers who are writing that they can only survive when their kids other than the baby are out of the house. If they really feel that way why are they having so many children? Can a mother only care for one child at a time?
Again the thread isn't about whether camp is good or bad but whether mothers who can't afford to send their kids to camp shoud be getting zedoko to do so.
I say "NO". There are still so many real needs - food, shelter, clothing, health care - which some poor yidden don't have that money should go for that first.
And for those of you equating camp with jewish education. Oy! There are wonderful free internet Jewish educational programs for children. If you are talking about kids from a BT home where the parents can't pay and camp is the only place to learn yiddishkeit then you are stuck. So how come in the past such kids who couldn't afford camp still became good frum yidden eventually?
And for those of you equating camp with jewish education. Oy! There are wonderful free internet Jewish educational programs for children. If you are talking about kids from a BT home where the parents can't pay and camp is the only place to learn yiddishkeit then you are stuck. So how come in the past such kids who couldn't afford camp still became good frum yidden eventually
I can tell from reading this that you have absolutely no direct experience with living in a place with no other frum kids around.
Even for kids who do, camp is a place where they can have positive experiences - maybe school is a negative experience for some kids, but camp is a positive one. Not every kid needs it, and youth groups and so on can have a similar effect.
Raisin, for the women living in Brooklyn I doubt that is their case, sorry to say.
Yes if a woman is living in an area where there is no other Jewish child for her children to play with, that also means that they don't have a Jewish school in the area so where exactly is her child learning during the year? If at home and the idea is that the only contact they have with Jewish kids is at camp, then camp is really good...but again, is it a necessity that would require them to take zedoko from others to provide it for their chidlren? More than for general Jewish education? I don't think so...
where I live there is no such thing as a child not going to day camp in the summer. However I am lucky that day camp is really not prohibitively expensive here. For boys there is no additional charge; it's included in their tuition. for girls, there is a minimal charge.
I admit I was exaggerating a bit. However - my sister, for instance, has six kids KEH. Oldest is 12. When her kids are all home - forget about talking to her. Someone always wants someting else, KE"H. It really drains a person to be on call the entire day, juggling the needs of six different people. the older kids wouldnt enjoy a playground, the younger kids wouldnt enjoy a museum. there is a reason some people dont homeschool; it's not for them. Why should they suddenly be able to 'homeschool' in the summer?
It's sad that there are places where summer day camp is so unaffordable.
I'm just curious . . . how many of you actually have people coming to your door for tzedakah for the purpose of sending their kids to camp? I can't remember a single one.
Is the argument, then, that community resources (including tzeddakah, contributions to camps, camp fees and expenses, etc.) would be better spent for something else? Is the argument that kids should learn how to entertain themselves better in the summer?
I can't argue with either premise, but I don't agree that the culprits behind the whole "summer camp" mentality are lazy, slothful SAHMs who are just trying to avoid taking care of their children while they lounge around eating bonbons.
First of all, I don't know that many true SAHMs; second, those I do know seem to be trying to minimize the costs of camp rather than getting someone else to shoulder the burden.
If entitlement to summer camp is so offensive, take it up with the people who are pushing it: Roshei Yeshiva; principals; teachers, etc. I've had virtual knock-down, drag-out arguments with principals who absolutely insist that "all kids must go to camp." They claim that kids will be left behind academically and socially, and that I'm being an irresponsible parent not to beg, borrow, or steal the needed funds.
Frankly, I don't think it's the neighborhood playgroup that's causing so much financial angst; it's the bigger-ticket places that divert needed funds from our schools and cause so much stress for parents. In the U.S., these camps often involve not only the actual fees, but an "appropriate" wardrobe and a plane ticket, to boot!
Yes, yes, I know: some imamothers raised their children when people walked to school uphill both ways without shoes and were grateful to eat stone soup at night. You didn't take anything from anybody and nobody helped you; you did everything all by yourself. We're all appropriately impressed. Now, stop bashing us over the head with it and take up the anti-mandatory summer camp argument with the folks who are really promoting it -- not the handful of women who simply look forward to a few hours of quiet on summer mornings.
Mama Bear, it can become a self-sustaining problem though. Because the kids are bored and can't entertain themselves, they get sent to activities or camp or whatever. But then because they're used to being constantly entertained, they can't entertain themselves and find normal life boring.
Not that kids should be expected to play indoors all day.
I really don't get what's so hard in a normal situation about getting on a bus and going somewhere. Most of what you describe is just everyday life - don't you dress the kids every day? Bring them out of the house? Field requests, mediate fights?
Maybe if the nearest park were 20 minutes or more away by bus. Personally I'd consider an apartment like that simply not liveable.
I want to address the bolded.
So what is hard about getting onto a bus with a family of kids (on a daily basis)?
You wake up in the morning at 6:30am, nurse the baby. When you leave your room you find a blue trail all over your couch, kids, kids linen, walls, etc, because they helped themselves to frozen blueberries from the freezer. Clean up the mess. Dress the kids. Coach the ones that should be dressing themselves, but it takes them forever because they keep on getting distracted. Feed breakfast. Nothing elaborate, just cereal & milk. Only 2 out of 5 kids managed to spill their bowls. Wash everyone up. Make their hair. Six year old girl throws a tantrum because there are bumps even after you made her hair over 4 times. Meanwhile the other 2 kids decided that they are bored & took out toys & games. Each one something else & it's all over the tiny space. You have no control over the toy situation since they don't have a room of their own (this is a one bedroom & they sleep in the dining room), & no spare closet for their toys either. You don't even attempt to make beds or clean up because of what they may do in that time...yada yada yada yada
On a regular school day it would all end someplace here. Once the kids are on the bus you can catch your breath, eat breakfast & then start straightening up the place. On a vacation day the grand fun continues.
Finally when you get everyone together, pack up lunch, nurse the baby again you trek down two flights with your stroller. It is 95 degrees outside, the streets stink from garbage but everyone is thrilled to be finally on the way to a park. You walk 6 blocks to the bus station. FOLD the carraige. Hold the baby in one hand, all your bags with lunch, water bottles, etc, in the other hand. The stroller is on the floor & you need to watch that the other three kids don't go into the street until the bus comes. Hopefully you won't wait to long. Will not have a nasty driver who doesn't have patience to wait for you to load. The kids will be super behaved while waiting. There will be some very nice people helping you get that stroller plus baby plus bags plus kids onto the bus. & you will hopefully not need to transfer inorder to get where you need to.....
Do I need to go on? This is all NOT ONE BIT exagerated.
I don't think it warrants tzedaka monies. BUT, women venting on imamother that their kids need daycamp don't deserved to be judged like they where judged on this thread.
Again, it isn't a necessity like food & shelter, but not the luxury you make it out to be.
There was alot of namecalling on this thread that was uncalled for.
Mamabear, I am glad daycamp doesn't cost you, but it costs me plenty for the boys too. It's also more expensive because we are only sending them for one half.
I have small kids. I take buses with small kids. I don't look forward to it, but it's hardly at the soul-sucking, insanity-creating level of difficulty either.
Anything sounds hard if you break it down like that. If I were to describe sending an email step by step it would sound like a lot of work. But in reality, you walk down the street, fold your stroller, keep an eye on the kids for a few minutes while waiting for the bus - not anything harder than what most people do each day (on that note - a "regular" day for many people doesn't involve time to themselves while the kids are in school).
I don't think it warrants tzedaka monies. BUT, women venting on imamother that their kids need daycamp don't deserved to be judged like they where judged on this thread.
Again, it isn't a necessity like food & shelter, but not the luxury you make it out to be.
There was alot of namecalling on this thread that was uncalled for.
Thank you. Though to be fair, a few pages back someone did take the pains to say that she wasn't addressing anyone in particular but railing against the current climate of entitlement. Still, I can see the pitchforks coming with some of these posts...
Ronit, you left out one tiny piece. When you get onto the bus and swipe your metrocard, the kids start running to grab a seat and a white haired old lady comments, "can't you watch your kids?"
Ora, when your sitting in your air conditioned quiet office and send an e-mail, ten steps is no big deal, but in 95 degrees with six kids home for 10 weeks living in a city, every move is felt exactly the way Ronit said it.
