Mama Bear, I think even among us camp "nay sayers", there is a general consensus that when you have a kids with special needs as you do, everything is a completely different ballgame.
Mamabear, I am sorry for what you are going through. It has nothing to do with living in Brooklyn although that doesn't seem to add to the joy...had you been living in a house in five towns and had to put your son in with your into your car and drive him to the markets to get the things that you need sounds like he would have made the same ruckus because that is who he is or what is problems are or how he is being raised or whatever, I can't really figure it out. On the one hand it sounds like all the more active little kids I have known or raised. Some kids scream all the time. You strap them in and tune it out if there is no way to stop their screaming. You keep them literally on a leash when they are out of the stroller so that they can't run away if they are so hyperactive and you are so tired.
Was he like this at eighteen months? I seem to remember your writing aobut him at that age that he was also rambunctious. However at eighteen months you couldn't send him anywhere...how did you cope then?
If you have errands to do and a mother, sisters or sisters in law within walking distance of your home why can't you leave him with them for an hour and a half while you get all your stuff done fast? And you have to have some structure to YOUR day as well. As a mother who knows what it is like to put your kids first and not eat anything that is NOT SMART especially as you need nutrition to care for them. Let them scream in the morning and sit down and have something to eat. If your little one is that rambunctious and you need to be able to sit for three minutes invest in this contraption that is like a harness and give him something to eat or play with and harness him to the chair while you sit and eat. He might scream the first five times but once he sees that you mean business, unless you are taking an hour to eat and he loses it, he will learn that mommy needs ten minutes to eat. Have you ever tried that?
Again, I dont' know whether his issues are making him so out of control, but what you describe doesn't have to be that way. Even for a three year old. Even for a three year old with what he has...
I don't think anyone can claim that living in Brooklyn is doing the Jewish nation a favor.
I think that is wrong. What about a BT who lives in brooklyn but is able to invite her secular family to experience jewish parts of life they would never have done with anyone else? Ding Ding!! Thats me. My secular family has heard the meggillah on purim, the shofar on rosh hashanah, matzah on pesach etc. Helping make sure that our jewish nation doesn't die out, helps the jewish nation don't you think?
Of course Jews living in Brooklyn are doing something special for Klal Yisrael. Look at the amazing mitzva-observing communities we have built up, B"H! What, the lives of Yidden in Brooklyn are meaningless and pointless? Far from it! We need small pockets of frumkeit everywhere, but they depend on the base of our strong cities!
As far as how people lived in previous generations, it's irrelevant and tiresome. Energy is better spent on relating to the practical challenges of today's kids and their moms.
And today all of these communities are able to be as they are simply because we have a Jewish medineh. Without out, jewish communities would look like they did sixty years ago with rampant antisemitism, fear of wearing Jewish garb outside and the impossibility of getting various kosher foods. Actually the big change was only after 67 to tell you the truth, when Jews no longer feared showing that they were Jewish...and that had to do with a military victory here in EY whether various anti zionist groups like to admit it or not.
The problem however begins when Jews in golus begin to think that their communities are on the same or even a higher madrega than living in EY. Just look at the Jews of Bavel. Look at the fabulous yeshivot that used to exist. Today? Nothing. Nada. gurnisht. But look at EY.
Remember that this is the center. Because of this everything else exists, not the other way around (Shal are you around? Can you believe that I am writing this? New Zeland anyone?)
Pickle you are writing blasphemy. You are writing that living in Golus is exactly the same level of kedusha as living in EY?????
I didn't ask whether one can live a life of kodesh outside of EY, I also didn't say that yidden outside of EY are nothing nor did I say anything about their neshomos. I never said that the neshomo of someone living in EY is greater or more beloved by the Ribono Shel Olam than someone living elsewhere. You wre writing that..
What I wrote and you aren't answering is whether you think that golus has the same madrega as eretz yisroel. Be careful with your answer. Because if you say yes, according to almost all poskim across the board you are writing blasphemy.
That has nothing to do with the fact that people can have valid reasons for living where they live. But at least they are aware of the fact that the highest kedusha in the world is EY and the highest kedusha in EY is yerushayalim and the highest kedusha in yerushalayim is har habayis and the highest kedusha in har habayis is in kodesh hakodoshim!
A big thank you to those who spoke for me. You did a great job.
Excuse my absence, I was making dinner and getting ready for relatives who asked to sleep in my living room tonight.
Just look at the Jews of Bavel. Look at the fabulous yeshivot that used to exist. Today? Nothing. Nada. gurnisht. But look at EY.
As mentioned, Eret Yisroel is a spiritual state of being. Which is why Jews who live in ERetz Yisroel say ""Mipnei Chato'einu Golinu mei'artzenu" when saying shmoneh esrei, as the rest of us, because yesiree, they are in GOLUS!!
The famous Yeshivos that used to exist haven't dissappeared off the map. The shechinah traveled with them, wherever they were, or relocated and restructured to, in every generation. Today, the equivalent of those Yeshivos are found in various places in the world! (including EY, Brooklyn, London, France, Moscow, etc.). Hence the term "Beis Rabbeninu She'B'Bavel", applicable to the Yeshivos of then - in Bavel, and applicable now, to their counterparts, the Batei Medrashim of today, in Golus, but nonetheless compared by Chazal to the Beis Hamikdash! Indeed, the shechinah resides in every one of them and they are called Mikdash Me'at!
Pickle you are writing blasphemy. You are writing that living in Golus is exactly the same level of kedusha as living in EY?????
I didn't ask whether one can live a life of kodesh outside of EY, I also didn't say that yidden outside of EY are nothing nor did I say anything about their neshomos. I never said that the neshomo of someone living in EY is greater or more beloved by the Ribono Shel Olam than someone living elsewhere. You wre writing that..
What I wrote and you aren't answering is whether you think that golus has the same madrega as eretz yisroel. Be careful with your answer. Because if you say yes, according to almost all poskim across the board you are writing blasphemy.
That has nothing to do with the fact that people can have valid reasons for living where they live. But at least they are aware of the fact that the highest kedusha in the world is EY and the highest kedusha in EY is yerushayalim and the highest kedusha in yerushalayim is har habayis and the highest kedusha in har habayis is in kodesh hakodoshim!
What I am saying is that a person living outside of Israel CAN make a difference for the jewish nation byt reaching yidden that could easily be forgotten. I am not saying that brooklyn is Israel but I am saying that saving jews from assimilation DOES effect the jewish nation. There are plenty of assimilated jews in brooklyn.
Yes there is kedusha in chul but I don't think any major Rav holds that it comes close to kedushas EY. Otherwise why mourn the destruction of the Beis Hamkidash and the subsequent exile from EY? Why say "im eshkachaych Yerushalayim tishkach yimini"? Tisha B'Av is coming up and I think it's safe to say that the destruction of any other center of Jewish living is not mourned the way the destruction of Yerushalayim is mourned until this day.
Whoever thinks it's more special to live in bombarded yishuvim in EY and wants to support that, can donate to kaitanot there. Whoever wants to support day camp subsidies in Brooklyn, or wherever else they see a need, I think that's also a mitzva. Hey, there are enough mitzvos to go around - stop competing!
Do you put that on the exact same level of kedusha as living in EY? Emphasis on the word exact?
YES!!!
What are yidden outside of israel nothing? Are their neshamas less special to G-d than ones living inside of Israel?
You people should really open a chumash, you know, instead of quoting rebbes. I know it doesn't have a haskama, but it really is reliable nonetheless. You should read what Hakadosh Baruch Hu has to say about EY, and what He has to say about those who rejected its importance and kedusha. What, were those holy yidden in the midbar nothing? I could cry at how the Torah is being distorted. I heard a wonderful shiur by Mrs. Shoshie Nussbaum a few months ago where she said sometimes a Jew cannot be in EY, but he should feel all the time that he is "backside al pi hadibbur" (forced by Hashem's will).
FS wrote:
The problem however begins when Jews in golus begin to think that their communities are on the same or even a higher madrega than living in EY. Just look at the Jews of Bavel. Look at the fabulous yeshivot that used to exist. Today? Nothing. Nada. gurnisht. But look at EY.
Remember that this is the center. Because of this everything else exists, not the other way around (Shal are you around? Can you believe that I am writing this? New Zeland anyone?)
Just look at the Jews of Bavel. Look at the fabulous yeshivot that used to exist. Today? Nothing. Nada. gurnisht. But look at EY.
As mentioned, Eret Yisroel is a spiritual state of being. Which is why Jews who live in ERetz Yisroel say ""Mipnei Chato'einu Golinu mei'artzenu" when saying shmoneh esrei, as the rest of us, because yesiree, they are in GOLUS!!
Being in galus doesn't mean EY doesn't have greater kedusha than everywhere else, chalila. We don't have a beis hamikdash, but we live in EY with kedushas haaretz.
Do you take trumos and maaser in Brooklyn? Go and read how the Ramban (who also lived after the churban) wrote in his peirush that ALL the mitzvos are lacking in chul.
I haven't read all the 30 pages in this thread so I probably won't say much that's relevant but this is what I think about the necessity for camp:
I think it all depends on the situation. Maybe if I was a SAHM with a wealthy dh, with a live in slave to take care of the housework, I'd absolutely love having eight weeks of nothing to do but spend loads of quality time with my children. But for some of us, camp is a lifesaver because our reality doesn't make that possible. For example, I am a single mother with bli ayin hara six kids at home at the moment who is a WAHM and I find the eight week summer holiday here in Israel to be a killer. Every summer, I end up losing at least one client because of all the distractions and interruptions. But I never take time off because I can't afford it. My kids go to their father for just one week of the vacation even though he's supposed to take them for two. If I didn't send my girls to school camp for the first three weeks of what we call the Onesh Hagadol, I would probably be on a permanent vacation down the local loony bin.
During the summer, I find the kids get bored and want money for this and money for that, and Mummy everyone else's parents take them to the lunar park every day blah blah blah. Every so often, if I have the money for it, I'll take them out for pizza or falafel or just for a fun trip into town. But I can't do it too often due to lack of time as I HAVE to work.
So when I hear that families with loads of kids feel that they need camp, I can really relate. For many reasons, parents may not be able to cope otherwise and I can't judge them for it. I actually think that three or four weeks off in the summer is adequate and that this whole long boring summer vacation business is an obsolete anachronism that harks back to the years when kids didn't have working mothers. So many kids go OTD in the summer, not to mention the accidents, etc, so yes when I hear that for some mothers camp is a must, I can really relate.
I often feel guilty for spending more time on my computer in the summer than with my children. But I know that if I don't, we'll all have some wonderful quality time together -living in a cardboard box under the bridge ...
Excuse me while you're on your Eretz Yisroel rant, but just like birth control hashkafa is not part of this discussion so is living in Eretz Yisroel hashkafa.
Veering into both of those discussions means you are saying: "Live like I live. Make the choices I made. Because it's my way or the high way."
Can you simply leave it alone? Realize that we don't all think like you and we have different ideals, a different avodah in this world. It is not coincidental that we are on different derachim, G-d put us where we belong.
The irony in asking someone to stop quoting their Rebbe and then going on to quote some lady is boggleminding me. Yeah, I know you also spoke about G-d Himself and the Chumash... Yawn, as if we don't know what's written in there. As if the Rebbe's opinion on avodas Hashem isn't worth anything but we should all consider the words of a lady out there we've never heard of.
Give it a break. Accept and respect, or don't, and leave it alone anyway.
Last edited by gryp on Mon, Jul 04 2011, 7:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
Give it a break. Accept and respect, or don't, and leave it alone anyway.
I see no respect anywhere in your post.
I may be new here, but if I ever speak so disrespectfully about frumkeit as this:
Quote:
Yeah, I know you also spoke about G-d Himself and the Chumash... Yawn, as if we don't know what's written in there.
Mods, please kick me off this site if I ever let an internet discussion drag me to such depths. Forget being rude to Shalhevet, do you realize how much contempt this shows for Torah?
I just watched a clip of the Lubavitcher Rebbe explaining why he doesn't visit in EY. He said that the Jews here need him, and if he visits, he won't halachically be able to come back to America. I think it was pretty clear that some have their work cut out for them elsewhere, and accomplish amazing things, but there is no contesting that EY is the ideal.
