As for camp pushing torah who are we kidding? Camp is about fun, not rebbes. Are we only talking charedi camps? What? A SAHM MO mom with six kids who wants to send her kids to some Zionist sleep away camp with no rebbes doesnt' deserve that zedoko money too? Where does it end.
My sons' camp does have Rebbes and they do have learning. The same Rebbes that work during the year in his school, work in the camp. Its not all about fun.
Again Pickle if you can afford it, great. But for a mother who can't, I assume you are talking about children under bar mitzva age, am I correct? Any mother who had some kind of Jewish education can definitely teach her sons of that age at least an hour a day worth of yiddishkeit. Meaning there is so much a mother can teach her children that no one else can. Everything can become torah learning. It isn't necessary to go to camp for that. Particularly if someone can't afford it.
What I am saying is that if the argument is that every child must go to camp for the learning, then show me a camp of little kids who have a net learning time at camp of more than one hour a day and even that is a lot if we are talking about net time and not playing around. A mother at home can definitely provide that for her children. One hour. In 24.
"And certainly since the time that BC became available there was never a halochic source to state that if you have fulfiled pru urvu you should keep on going even if you will have to beg for charity to feed your children if you have a choice and not have them now."
The source is "Lo tohu bera'a; lasheves yetzara". See this page.
As far as accepting available funding (which is the way I am putting it) versus not having more kids, every couple in this situation should discuss it with their rav.
Barbara, it is not impossible, but neither is it obligatory to withhold assistance from these families.
Isramom the source you brought has nothing to do with what I wrote. According to no one does one have to have children more and more and more children when you can't emotionally care for them yourself. Lashevet yetzara is not one of the taryag mitzvos (see sefer hamitzvos) but rather a derivative of pru urvu. See Rambam. And pru urvu is the overriding mitzva and the whole discussion that you linked to has to do with who is required to have children and who isn't. Women, Slaves etc.
Nothing there has to do with there being a meforash mitzva to have kids for the sake of having kids. And certainly not at the public's expense. Populating the world is not "lashevet yetzara" and is a derivative of pru urvu.
One should strive to have many children, since each additional child is like building a world.
(Rambam, Hilchos Ishus 15a:16).
http://www.torah.org/learning/.....html#
I understand that with the first boy and girl one fulfills peru urevu, and with each additional child one fulfills the mitzva of sheves.
No matter. Jewish continuity is an ideal even if you pick apart my pesukim.
Sorry, but I won't let you paint me as an opponent of birth control. That's not the case. I just say that you personally don't get to decide for someone else.
Go look at that Rambam and at the whole discussion instead of taking it from an internet site. There are caveats to the dictum to "have many children" and the definition of many is more than two (that's just BTW halochically...). One caveat has to do with the mothers physical and emotional health. Another has to do with situational factors.
The Rambam does NOT want people to be rabbits and just having baby after baby after baby no matter what the circumstances are.
Check your source from the source including the surrounding discussions and meforshim. Not from an internet site.
Actually yes I do. And so do you and so does everyone else....if...the decision of that person will be dependent upon my paying for the upkeep of that child.
Because I can very well decide that a parent who is incapable of caring either emotionally or physically or financially for his or her own child shouldn't be having any more.
And therefore I - or you - or him - or her - or she - or they - or anyone at large - won't give the money.
And by doing so. We ARE deciding for that person whether she will have another child.
Because if her decision depends on our paying and we won't pay....well there you have it.
Barbara, I was rude and I am very sorry. I am sure you do care and I take back the stuff I said there. If you want me to delete my post or edit it to take it out I'll do so.
Gryp - for the record, I think that children who are 9 or above should get a chance to go to sleepover camp, if that's what everyone in their community is.
But little kids? Great, if you can afford it.
And what are you talking about kids over 5 being harder?? I have a 5, 4 and 1 year old. They need assistance with most everything, and need guidance in their play. I manage it because we cant afford camp, and because I'm loving it.
And I resent the supermommy sarcastic comments, I'm just dealing with my life, without complaining about it. Not doing it perfectly, or even well some days. But we are doing it and having fun for the most part.
Barbara, I was rude and I am very sorry. I am sure you do care and I take back the stuff I said there. If you want me to delete my post or edit it to take it out I'll do so.
Tempers run hot in debates like this one. No offense taken.
So now its official. Imamother has decided that you can get a heter for BC if you can't afford camp. I will inform my Rav tomorrow.
Not being able to afford camp is not the problem. The problem is if spending time with your kids is not cope-able for you. If you can't handle your kids unless they're in camp, and you can't afford camp, then yes, you have a big problem and probably should consider BC. (the "you" here is a general you, not specific you)
Att: Brooklyn SAHM's with multiple kids at home. Please don't bother with this thread anymore. Life's daily aggravations are bad enough without comments from Imasmugmother.com.
Please? You can easily find a better sounding board than this. This thread is like galus. Please redeem yourselves.
very true. there are some people here with noses so far up in the air we can see their brains from down here. the "if I can do it everyone ought to be able to" crowd will never hear us.
The way I was brought up was that even if someone could technically survive without something....but it would be painful, then it is a chessed and a tzeddakah to help them.
For example:
1. If someone's missing teeth and is walking around with gaping holes in their mouths because they can't afford to fix it, in my book it is a worthy mitzvah to help that person pay for it.
2. If someone has a sheital that looks worse than a mop and their daughter is getting married it is a mitzvah to subsidize or pay for a wig for that person.
3. If someone can't afford day camp and their kids are dancing up to their neck for two months straight...it is a mitzvah to help pay for it.
4. If someone is struggling to cope with a house full of young kids it is a mitzvah to help them clean their homes for shabbos or to pay someone to.
You get my point. We are about helping people who need help. Whether they are struggling with young kids, financial difficulties, emotional help whatever....the point is not whether I can manage without these things, the point is am I in a position to help, and if I am, then it is with great pleasure.
