I think part of this debate is due to the fact that many of you don't understand the what a financial luxury is. Just because sending your kids to camp doesn't feel luxurious doesn't mean it's not a luxury in this discussion's context.
I also don't understand why so many people stay in Brooklyn with such attitudes. If it's so horrible to raise kids there, with the lack of clean air, nearby activities and parks, and poor mobility, it's time to consider relocating to one of the many other Jewish communities near NY and elsewhere.
I think part of this debate is due to the fact that many of you don't understand the what a financial luxury is. Just because sending your kids to camp doesn't feel luxurious doesn't mean it's not a luxury in this discussion's context.
I also don't understand why so many people stay in Brooklyn with such attitudes. If it's so horrible to raise kids there, with the lack of clean air, nearby activities and parks, and poor mobility, it's time to consider relocating to one of the many other Jewish communities near NY and elsewhere.
The reason is that we dont have any luxuries... we spend on what is necessary.
You insist on calling it a luxury, ok fine...
I always try to weigh the lesser of the 2 evils - shlep the stroller up & down the multiple flights of stairs on the subway, or fold the stroller (which is VERY hard to do one handed!!!)... what if you have a 28 pound toddler I that stroller, a toddler that runs away when taken out of the stroller???
I usually do not end up going anywhere unless dh drives me. he's only avaialble on weekends.
Going on day trip alone with my kids is someting I avoid at all costs. I avoid going anwyhwere with both of them unless it's a local destination - I dont travel with both of them. cant imagine doing it with 5 kids, aznd not for 10 weeks straight.
MamaBear so then camp IS NOT a luxury for you given your circumstances. No one said camp is a luxury for everyone. Same as day care isn't a luxury for everyone. Or a sanitorium visit. Each person has needs both for himself and his children. You, Mama Bear, are willing to pay for your child to go. At whatever cost. And if not, there is probably a camp fund so you are set.
But.. WHO got you into an apartment on a fourth floor in hot disgusting Brooklyn, and WHO is responsible for making it all work out? Do you think that if you could not afford to send them, someone such as myself (who traditionally doesn't send kids yet lives somewhere decent), should give tzedaka for that?
FTR, I am part of a Mommy camp (this year and last) for my 12 yo son. Before that he just hung around. Yeah, it's work and yeah, he's going to be hanging out a lot anyway as camp is just 2-3 activities/week. And my 6.5 yo is getting camp this year from his gan for 3-4 weeks and will be hanging out for all of August. Last year he was home for the whole 2 months, looked after by his brothers. And I work part time. And we have terrible public transportation. And it's dang hot here in Israel as in: you can't go out to the park after 10 or 11 am and before 5 or 6 pm, any day of the week and no rain-breaks. And my husband works at home and needs peace and quiet.
I realize that everyone has something going on, I don't live in lala land. By the same token, I also am shocked at people who set themselves up for a type of life, or when they get thrown rotten tomatoes by life, see absolutely no reason to have to adapt . That's the shocking part. And it goes on and on in threads on this board. I'd like to have some of you walk a mile in my shoes, and then call my opinions judgmental. They aren't. They are realistic. No fantasies here.
I wouldn't be so quick to think that Ora doesn't know what she's talking about with busses. I haven't ridden a bus in a couple of years, but last time I did it was with 2 kids, a double stroller, and a rolling duffle bag.
Another memorable trip was 1 kid, a stroller, a 7-month pregnant belly, and: a cooler full of food, package of diapers, an overnight bag, a diaper bag...and I don't even remember what else. DS#1 and I were going for a 3 day yom tov to a friend. It involved a bus from the house (across the street, thank G-d!), to the bus station, going through security at the bus station, up 2 floors to the bus bays, loading everything UNDER the bus, waiting to board with an 18 month old who wanted "to explore" but had to be in my arms because he would have been trampled otherwise, boarding, paying the driver (cash, not metrocard), finding a seat (and DS had to be on what was left on my "lap", as he was a non-paying traveller), entertaining him for the hour's bus ride, getting off the bus, unloading our stuff from under the bus, and PRAYING that the bus didn't take off while I was still retrieving things from underneath, reloading it all back on the trolley/cart wheels I'd brought along to make things "easier" to shlep...and then a 10 minute walk with the stroller, the trolley, and a backpack...did I mention there were no ramps on/off of the sidewalk?
The poster who has trouble juggling all the stuff...with 5 kids I think? Are they all under 6? My 5 and 3 year olds carry their own water bottles and their own backpacks. My 5 year old goes to gan by bus every morning...and my 3 year old accompanies his brother and Abba to the collection point (no, it's not right outside my front door). They know how to wait for a bus. They know how to behave (usually) on a bus. They know how much leeway I give them if it's a long wait.
For July my kids are in camp (gan) in the morning because I work. I tried to organize a mommy-camp round robin (which would still necessitate my taking time off) but it didn't get off the ground, though it certainly would have been cheaper than the one in the gan (for DS#2; DS#1 is free). In the afternoon I am paying a private sitter 4 days a week; it works out CHEAPER than putting the two of them in the gan program in the afternoon. During the year the afternoon program is subsidized (income based); during the vacation it's not and so it becomes a "luxury", even though my own schedule hasn't changed. In August I have a teenager coming to watch the boys in the morning...after 9 Av that includes the baby. And I'm taking the late afternoon off. It's still cheaper, and covers more days, than the organized camps. Yes, she'll have to entertain them. We have 6 parks within a 2 block radius in any direction. We have craft supplies. We have books. She'll give them a snack in the morning. Some days I might give her cab fare and enough for admission to the indoor play area...we have zoo passes. It will still be cheaper than the organized camps. In my case the "luxury" of having someone in my home works out cheaper than programs for each one of my kids individually. But I can't forego care entirely...it doesn't make sense for me to take a month off work, unpaid.
1. Why are yeshivas off all summer long - in EY there is 3 weeks of bein hazemanim. Of course boys need to keep learning - why does it have to be with an expensive camp?
2. I've never been to Brooklyn, but I've learned 2 things about it from imamother. One, that it is really, really expensive to buy/rent there. Two, that the living conditions are awful - freezing cold in winter, boiling hot in summer, expensive, you have to get on a bus just to go to a park.
1 - large frum community, with many schools and conveniences
2 - Chen haaretz al yoshveha. There is nowhere else as good as where I live, wherever that place may be.
Mama Bear, it can become a self-sustaining problem though. Because the kids are bored and can't entertain themselves, they get sent to activities or camp or whatever. But then because they're used to being constantly entertained, they can't entertain themselves and find normal life boring.
Not that kids should be expected to play indoors all day.
I really don't get what's so hard in a normal situation about getting on a bus and going somewhere. Most of what you describe is just everyday life - don't you dress the kids every day? Bring them out of the house? Field requests, mediate fights?
Maybe if the nearest park were 20 minutes or more away by bus. Personally I'd consider an apartment like that simply not liveable.
I want to address the bolded.
So what is hard about getting onto a bus with a family of kids (on a daily basis)?
You wake up in the morning at 6:30am, nurse the baby. When you leave your room you find a blue trail all over your couch, kids, kids linen, walls, etc, because they helped themselves to frozen blueberries from the freezer. Clean up the mess. Dress the kids. Coach the ones that should be dressing themselves, but it takes them forever because they keep on getting distracted. Feed breakfast. Nothing elaborate, just cereal & milk. Only 2 out of 5 kids managed to spill their bowls. Wash everyone up. Make their hair. Six year old girl throws a tantrum because there are bumps even after you made her hair over 4 times. Meanwhile the other 2 kids decided that they are bored & took out toys & games. Each one something else & it's all over the tiny space. You have no control over the toy situation since they don't have a room of their own (this is a one bedroom & they sleep in the dining room), & no spare closet for their toys either. You don't even attempt to make beds or clean up because of what they may do in that time...yada yada yada yada
On a regular school day it would all end someplace here. Once the kids are on the bus you can catch your breath, eat breakfast & then start straightening up the place. On a vacation day the grand fun continues.
Finally when you get everyone together, pack up lunch, nurse the baby again you trek down two flights with your stroller. It is 95 degrees outside, the streets stink from garbage but everyone is thrilled to be finally on the way to a park. You walk 6 blocks to the bus station. FOLD the carraige. Hold the baby in one hand, all your bags with lunch, water bottles, etc, in the other hand. The stroller is on the floor & you need to watch that the other three kids don't go into the street until the bus comes. Hopefully you won't wait to long. Will not have a nasty driver who doesn't have patience to wait for you to load. The kids will be super behaved while waiting. There will be some very nice people helping you get that stroller plus baby plus bags plus kids onto the bus. & you will hopefully not need to transfer inorder to get where you need to.....
Do I need to go on? This is all NOT ONE BIT exagerated.
I do all that regularly. Ok, 2 fewer kids, but my kids are absolutely handfuls who know how to make more trouble than a few other kids combined. And I don't see what the big deal is. You decided to be a mother- you handle it!
lux·u·ry /ˈlʌkʃəri, ˈlʌgʒə-/ Show Spelled
[luhk-shuh-ree, luhg-zhuh-] Show IPA
noun, plural -ries, adjective
–noun
1. a material object, service, etc., conducive to sumptuous living, usually a delicacy, elegance, or refinement of living rather than a necessity: Gold cufflinks were a luxury not allowed for in his budget.
2. free or habitual indulgence in or enjoyment of comforts and pleasures in addition to those necessary for a reasonable standard of well-being: a life of luxury on the french Riviera.
3. a means of ministering to such indulgence or enjoyment: This travel plan gives you the luxury of choosing which countries you can visit.
Wikipedia
Defining luxuryThe concept of luxury has been present in various forms since the beginning of civilization. Its role was just as important in ancient western and eastern empires as it is in modern societies.[1] With the clear differences between social classes in earlier civilizations, the consumption of luxury was limited to the elite classes. It also meant the definition of luxury was fairly clear. Whatever the poor cannot have and the elite can was identified as luxury. With increasing ‘democratization’,[2] several new product categories were created within the luxury market which were aptly called – accessible luxury or mass luxury. This kind of luxury specifically targeted the middle class (or what is sometimes termed as aspiring class). As luxury penetrated into the masses, defining luxury has become difficult.[3]
In contemporary marketing usage, Prof. Bernard Dubois defines ‘luxury’ as a specific (I.e. higher-priced) tier of offer in almost any product or service category. However, despite the substantial body of knowledge accumulated during the past decades, researchers still haven’t arrived on a common definition of luxury. Many other attempts have been made to define luxury using the price-quality dimension stating higher priced products in any category is luxury. Similarly, researchers have used the uniqueness aspects of luxury too. Prof. Jean-Noel Kapferer, takes an experiential approach and defines luxury as items which provide extra pleasure by flattering all senses at once. Several other researchers, focus on exclusivity dimension and argue that luxury evokes a sense of belonging to a certain elite group.
It takes a village to raise a child. Certainly more than one child. I think we Jews need to be in this Klal Yisrael building thing together. Reasonably priced kaitanot supports the whole body of our structure. Investing collectively in our kids' childhoods is just smart as far as our collective future.
Forget yesterday. Kids need what they do in today's society.
FS, my 17 year old did paint her bedroom last summer, but no thanks to the suggestion of my 8 year old attempting that. Deal- I won't ask my kids to make home improvements if they just don't mess it up too much.
Summer days are long. There is plenty of time for all the chilled home hanging out. Then what? Without some structure, many kids get crazy. Parents go nuts. Not healthy for Klal Yisrael.
Even BY high school girls need a program of some sort - that's why Etnachta was created about 6 years ago. It's subsidized. It's necessary.
I think older kids should work (as one option), and mine sometimes did/do. But not every kid can find work.
You know what else? Many need the luxury of camp. We may not technically die without it, but we would be very different people - way more stressed. I think camps have a right to solicit funds for subsidies.
OTOH I think kids should be trained not to have all their wants met. There is a fine line.
Helping moms to care for our children does not cross that line. It's wise.
Mamabear I have a feeling that women who are judgmental have few kids, or live in a suburban setting. Or if they do live in the city they don't know what its like to travel with a special needs kid and other children.
Alot of these ladies live in Israel and some in New Jersey.
I am just curious as to why you think that the women living in cities in Israel are any different than you? I do not fit any of the categories as I have one 3 year old daughter and we are moving in the summer so she will be home with me and we have a car and we will be living in a yishuv, so I cant really comment, but I really thought that this comment makes no sense.
Do you know what city life is like in Israel? Just by the fact that you clumped Israel with New Jersey makes me think that you dont.
Even BY high school girls need a program of some sort - that's why Etnachta was created about 6 years ago. It's subsidized. It's necessary.
You are comparing apples with diesel engines. Are you seriously saying that just like some people here feel their kids are entitled to weeks away from home at a sleepover camp, so too, the BY girls in Israel get 10 meetings of about 3-4 hours each all summer? Of course it's important to give the girls something enjoyable and chinuchi and positive to do, but we are talking here about a period of about 3-4 weeks, with a programme twice a week for about 3 hours at most (it includes 2 day trips ALL summer).
Quote:
I think older kids should work (as one option), and mine sometimes did/do. But not every kid can find work.
What would be good for older kids is dependant on others. They are happy and willing to do kaytanot, and put in hours of preparation, but in case you didn't notice, there are only (approximately) the same number of 5 year olds as 15 year olds in any given community, not all go to kaytana, which means kaytana supply far outstrips demand. Ditto babysitting. What else do you suggest?
I have small kids. I take buses with small kids. I don't look forward to it, but it's hardly at the soul-sucking, insanity-creating level of difficulty either.
Anything sounds hard if you break it down like that. If I were to describe sending an email step by step it would sound like a lot of work. But in reality, you walk down the street, fold your stroller, keep an eye on the kids for a few minutes while waiting for the bus - not anything harder than what most people do each day (on that note - a "regular" day for many people doesn't involve time to themselves while the kids are in school).
I think the people describing how difficult it is looking after 6 children (mama bear, ronit) do not actually HAVE 6 children. Or even 4 or 5. (ok, they may have other circumstances that make life very diffiicult, but for those of us without those circumstances, things may be very different)
I have taken my (5) kids on buses many times and it is not such a big deal at all. In some ways I prefer it to driving. I avoid buses where you need to fold the stroller and try and stick to the wheelchair accessible buses.
Last edited by Raisin on Thu, Jun 30 2011, 4:17 am; edited 1 time in total
Also by the time you have four children (unless you are octomum) your older ones can help a little. Even a three or four year old can take a small bag and/or water bottle or ask the driver to wait while you fold the stroller. Certainly a 6 year old.
Thanks Marion
I'm not sure what people think is so different about buses in summer in Israel. They think it's 75 degrees and windy here? That we don't need to bring bags when we take our kids out? That we don't need to pay? I'm not sure.
Don't talk about how much easier life is in the suburbs or in Israel until you've actually lived there. Don't get me wrong, I do think a lot is easier in Israel (and you all are free to join me here), but depending where you live, summer heat is not always one of those things.
And if you were in the suburbs, you would not be able to go anywhere at all without a car. Buses wouldn't even be an option. Each place has its difficulties.
As for the "judging" - This was not a thread where Brooklyn mothers were sitting around talking about camp and a bunch of people burst in and said, "Well when I was a kid we walked to school uphill both ways on days hot enough to literally set you on fire and we turned out fine." All the people "judging" are responding to an argument - the argument that camp is vital for every single city-dwelling mother's sanity, in this case, and that everyone who has ever lived in a hot urban area would agree. (Many of us have already said repeatedly that we understand that for some people camp really is necessary, but apparently that's still judging unless you say that camp is necessary for everyone . )
You don't want people to dispute your arguments, don't make them. It's not fair to make an extreme claim - not about yourself personally, but about the world at large - and then accuse anyone who disagrees of judging you.
But let's say it really is literally impossible for anyone to keep their children home with them in the summer in NYC. I really don't get why someone would live in a place where they have no choice but to send their children away. Especially kids as little as under six years old (since dealing with four kids under six is apparently not doable in Brooklyn in summer). It's not like anyone is stuck there for the cheap housing, right?
Isn't the ability to have every member of the family in the home year-round if they want a kind of basic thing to look for when seeking a house? Not that everyone needs their own bedroom or whatever, but to buy or rent a house that your kids aren't welcome in for a big chunk of the year? Why??
I have no koyech for camp mommy, even less in the summer with more migraines bc of heat and sun.
Sure, some send their preschooler alone to the playground, or keep him at the tv, or punish into not bothering them. Yay, great summer.
Yeah Ruchel but you can afford to send her to playgroup and aren't asking anyone for zedoko for it. BIG difference.
No one is saying camp or summer playgroup can't be a great experience both for children and for mothers.
But the arguments here go something along the lines of "I have to live in X place no matter what the cost even if the conditions are horrible because its the best place for me to live (why exactly?) and....I have to have large closely spaced famileis no matter what the cost even if I can't cope with caring by myself for such a family because that's the right way (who says? Once you have a boy and a girl if you need space to raise a family better few poskim will say "don't space", and even with two children of the same seks if you need space poskim will say the same, not "don't have any more kids" but definitely "if you need three years between them it's ok to use something for two years after your second child)...
And then they say that because of where they live and their inability to cope with the family that they chose to have, sending those children away for six or eight weeks during the summer is a necessity, or sending them out to a day camp so they won't be underfoot driving mommy batty in the heat is a necessity bla bla bla. Fine. Necessity shemecessity but only if you can afford it on your own. Because what you do in life is out of choice. No one forces anyone to live in a brooklyn tenement, no one forces anyone to have five children under the age of six, I don't think that most imamothers were raped continuously and that's why they have such closely space children.
And besides, for those of you who describe kids making mayhem while you nurse or sleep or anything else, ehem...what kind of vilde chayes are you raising? Sure, I can see a two year old making a real balagan if left on her own but a four year old can learn rules. And a six year old can make sure that a three year old stays in line. It's all in the upbringing. Since when are kids allowed into the fridge and freezer at three on their own if the chances are that they will smear your blueberries over the sofa??? Don't they know that there are things which are ossur? do they turn on the fire and put their fingers in it too while you are in the other room nursing? Gotta tell you, and from experience of lots of kids here, if you can teach them not to turn on the fire and put their fingers in while it's ok for you to turn on the fire and cook, you can teach them at that same age not to open the fridge without you around. Period. Punkt.
So let's add to the equation. You are raising children without limits of behaviour while not being able to cope with the ones you have on your own while still having more, living in a place where it is impossible to raise kids naturally and normally (natural is playing in a play area outside, not going to camp)...and now you tell us that because of the set up that you created yourselves you can't cope and need our funds for zedoko to send your kids to camp.
Sheesh.
Isramom I don't know what your eight year old is like but there is always a task that a normal kid at that age can learn to do several hours a day around the house. If he has diabilities, learning or physical or emotional, that's a different story but that's not what I refer to when I say that they can do things. Heck even sitting a six year old down to take apart three rolls of toilet paper two "slices" at a time and put neatly into a box to have ready as shabbos toilet paper for the week can take them two hours one day a week. Washing down the bathroom walls (all tiled so who cares if water gets shpritzed around) with a bucket can keep them busy for another hour. Sit them down with a tanach tape or something like that for a third hour and then for the next half hour let them write (if they are over seven or so) what they learned from it and how it can be put to use in their every day life. There are lots of tapes like that around for kids these days. And as I said, taking out and dusting every single book in the house for nine year olds keeps them busy too.
I am talking SAHM's. not WAHM's who have very different issues and need their children occupied so that they can work.
And again I'm talking about those who can't afford camp. If you can, geh gezint a heit. But if you can't, well that's just tough. It's a luxury for almost everyone who sits home full time. Some people here seem to want a "lifestyle" of their choosing - where to live, how many kids, how close - and then need help to keep up this lifestyle. That's parasitical in my book. When it comes from a situation mishomayim - chas vesholom sick kids, sick mother, mother with sick parents that SHE has to care for alone - it's one thing. If someone is on shlichus and has no Jewish kids around and has to send their kids away shlichus for me is like work, so if you fundraise for everything else you can fundraise for your kids. That's not a SAHM in the regular sense.
But for those of you sitting in brooklyn on the fourth floor with five kids under the age of seven who claim that if you don't get zedoko to send your kids to camp you won't survive the summer? Do yourself a favor, go to your rebbe and get a heter so that it won't become eight kids under the age of ten and then you will fall apart leaving eight yesomin chas vesholom....
When my children were younger the joke was that I was always the first one to sign my kids up for day camp..I needed camp. My kids needed camp. I worked during the school year and I felt I needed a break. I needed my kids to be happy and I needed to be happy. Then when my kids came home from day camp they were hungry and tired. After dinner and baths they were ready to play in the backyard..usually play camp but they could do that till bed time. You see I didnt have the energy or money to take them on all the trips and fun activities that day camp could. I couldnt sing all the songs and do the art and craft projects with them that t hey do at camp. It would cost more money for me to take them to all these fun places and hire some helpers to help me watch my kids and then I would be so tired and at the end of the day I wouldnt be that smiling mommy..I would be a tired out washcloth mommy. I feel that ..DAY CAMP IS NECCESARY FOR EVERYONE MOMMY AND CHILDREN. yes it is expensive but so is food, In my eyes they are both neccesary. Maybe there is a job u can do to bring down the price..shop..drive a van...ect..
When my kids started the overnight camp scene yes it was very expensive..but I wouldnt have it any other way. What they got out of overnight camp was almost more than they got out of school. They got the religios shot in the arm and the social part as well. They made friends from all over friends that they still have when they are older. I didnt have to worry what they ere going to do all evening..remember the older they get the more they need something strutured to do going to the library just wont do the trick. As the kids get older maybe they can get a job at camp...a mothers helper is almost always available. Money is always tight. There are always bills to pay. Your kids are only young once. I feel they need camp as much as the parent needs them to go to camp.
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