I'm just curious . . . how many of you actually have people coming to your door for tzedakah for the purpose of sending their kids to camp? I can't remember a single one.
Actually there is an organization in our community that does raise money for camp. There are about 4 orgs that give out scholarships for day camp.
I have 2 kids at home with me and 3 kids in camp during the summer. I don't think I am bored at all during the day. The one son that I did keep home, I was told by his therapists that he would greatly benefit from camp. I love doing activities with the kids but I also have house work to do also. When I take the kids out for the day I am wiped when I come home because of the heat.
I totally understand what Mamabear is talking about. I used to live in a 3rd floor walk up with 5 kids and it was very very stressful on the kids. I couldn't do much activities with them while being able to take care of the little ones too. B"H for camp and B"H my community is NOT like you judgmental women and camps give scholarships.
I have small kids. I take buses with small kids. I don't look forward to it, but it's hardly at the soul-sucking, insanity-creating level of difficulty either.
Anything sounds hard if you break it down like that. If I were to describe sending an email step by step it would sound like a lot of work. But in reality, you walk down the street, fold your stroller, keep an eye on the kids for a few minutes while waiting for the bus - not anything harder than what most people do each day (on that note - a "regular" day for many people doesn't involve time to themselves while the kids are in school).
are you required to fold your stroller and hold said baby while you board the bus wit packages, kids, and metrocard?
I just started reading this thread and while I will not read all six pages I wanted to just tell a funny story. I ran a mommy and me on the upper east of manhattan and one of the moms asked me if I knew someone who could come and play with her kid for an hour or two a day. (the kid was about a little over a year). she said her full time babysitter find it difficult to entertain and is better and feeding and walks and putting to sleep. by the way the mom doesn't work. I suggested she play with her own kids for an hour or so a day (just kidding I didn't say that but I was thinking it).
In Lubavitch, the Rebbe stressed the importance of every single child going to camp. I always worked full time and my kids went to day camp and then to overnight camp. Yes, it costs money. But they had great summers. Camp took them places that I didn't know about and showed them fun that I could not.
When they were home, Shabbosim & Sundays, I didn't have to rent a car and take them expensive places; they had been just about every place there is to go with camp.
For those of you in the suburbs, specially stay at home moms with a car - I don't think you can compare your lives to those of us who live in buildings with one air conditioner or 2 on timers. Or those of us with just fans. Our lives are harder. Plain and simple. We need help, and if it's in the form of camp, so be it.
For the record - I got WIC. First of all, it wasn't always income based (I had an underweight child who qualified) and no, I never had a cleaning lady.
Mamabear I have a feeling that women who are judgmental have few kids, or live in a suburban setting. Or if they do live in the city they don't know what its like to travel with a special needs kid and other children.
Alot of these ladies live in Israel and some in New Jersey.
I've kept kids home from day camp here and there. So I know what that's like. My kids became avid readers, enjoy doing their own art projects and also learned how to sit in front of a computer for hours. There were times that we all had a great time and other times that I just wished they would all disappear somewhere so I could just lay down in bed and rest.
But even though I did that because I couldn't afford day camp, I still think it's not a luxury and today would totally give someone tzeddakah to someone who really couldn't afford it.
You have to realize that there are different personalities. Some people are great leaders....especially with their kids, they have tons of pep and energy and nothing phases them. They would march their families up Mt. Everest, from newborn to teenager, in a neat row singing a happy tune. This kind of mother, would not get thrown off as they came to the edge of a cliff, she would merrily anticipate it before it happens, calculate how to veer everyone gently to the side, swaddle the newborn as it happily suckles in delight, carry the toddler on her shoulders, and lead the rest in a steady march.
Other people, break out in an anxious sweat just at the thought of that. Of course Mt. Everest mommy has a hard time understanding why others can't do what she does....Why not she exclaims?! You just go up up up and the kids follow! Totally not realizing how genuinely gifted she is in that regard.
So yes, you can be a really good mother, but not the kind that can entertain kids all day. And that's ok you still have a really good chance of raising good kids that will grow up to contribute to society one day.
Mamabear I have a feeling that women who are judgmental have few kids, or live in a suburban setting. Or if they do live in the city they don't know what its like to travel with a special needs kid and other children.
Alot of these ladies live in Israel and some in New Jersey.
And some of them have a tv and movies for entertainment which I don't think Mamabear has.
I'm just curious . . . how many of you actually have people coming to your door for tzedakah for the purpose of sending their kids to camp? I can't remember a single one.
Is the argument, then, that community resources (including tzeddakah, contributions to camps, camp fees and expenses, etc.) would be better spent for something else? Is the argument that kids should learn how to entertain themselves better in the summer?
I can't argue with either premise, but I don't agree that the culprits behind the whole "summer camp" mentality are lazy, slothful SAHMs who are just trying to avoid taking care of their children while they lounge around eating bonbons.
First of all, I don't know that many true SAHMs; second, those I do know seem to be trying to minimize the costs of camp rather than getting someone else to shoulder the burden.
If entitlement to summer camp is so offensive, take it up with the people who are pushing it: Roshei Yeshiva; principals; teachers, etc. I've had virtual knock-down, drag-out arguments with principals who absolutely insist that "all kids must go to camp." They claim that kids will be left behind academically and socially, and that I'm being an irresponsible parent not to beg, borrow, or steal the needed funds.
Frankly, I don't think it's the neighborhood playgroup that's causing so much financial angst; it's the bigger-ticket places that divert needed funds from our schools and cause so much stress for parents. In the U.S., these camps often involve not only the actual fees, but an "appropriate" wardrobe and a plane ticket, to boot!
Yes, yes, I know: some imamothers raised their children when people walked to school uphill both ways without shoes and were grateful to eat stone soup at night. You didn't take anything from anybody and nobody helped you; you did everything all by yourself. We're all appropriately impressed. Now, stop bashing us over the head with it and take up the anti-mandatory summer camp argument with the folks who are really promoting it -- not the handful of women who simply look forward to a few hours of quiet on summer mornings.
I'm the last person to back the "entitlement attitude" but those of you who have never lived in Concrete City (aka Brooklyn) with 5 kids under 6, have simply no idea what you're judging.
I am proud that my community has something called A Camp Fund for those who can't afford it.
What was that line about being in someone else's shoes before judging? I invite you to come visit, I'll go on vacation, and you can have that oh so easy SAHM job I have, with 3/5 kids in camp.
Shall we start listing particulars? What time does YOUR husband come home from work? How many kids do you have that can benefit from medication just so they don't tear the house down? How many hours of sleep are you getting at night? When was the last time you didn't get paid and therefore there's no food in the house, and in camp at least, your kids get two meals a day.
I'll echo the pat yourself on the back thing. Just because you don't need something, doesn't mean nobody does. Remember that before you start criticizing somebody's lifestyle.
I think the answer is: every person and every situation is different.
I homeschool (not by choice) and don't have a camp for my kids to go to.
- I live in a place with bad weather most of the year
- no other children for them to play/get together with
- no Jewish schools/camps
- hardly any parks
- nothing within walking distance
- only one car
- no money
I plan full days of activities throughout the year yet despite all the toys, learning, a&c, etc my kids still moan that they're bored and want to do things/go somewhere to play. We do kiruv. When my kids are old enough to send away to overnight camp, I will send them. How? By fundraising for it. The same way we fundraise for our salary, our programs that we run, etc.
I'm just curious . . . how many of you actually have people coming to your door for tzedakah for the purpose of sending their kids to camp? I can't remember a single one.
Actually there is an organization in our community that does raise money for camp. There are about 4 orgs that give out scholarships for day camp.
I have 2 kids at home with me and 3 kids in camp during the summer. I don't think I am bored at all during the day. The one son that I did keep home, I was told by his therapists that he would greatly benefit from camp. I love doing activities with the kids but I also have house work to do also. When I take the kids out for the day I am wiped when I come home because of the heat.
I totally understand what Mamabear is talking about. I used to live in a 3rd floor walk up with 5 kids and it was very very stressful on the kids. I couldn't do much activities with them while being able to take care of the little ones too. B"H for camp and B"H my community is NOT like you judgmental women and camps give scholarships.
I just wanted to add that Pickle Lady is the epitome of Superwoman. If she says she can't do something, I'll bet nobody can.
In all honesty I'm not so worried about entertaining kids age 9 and up.
it's the younger set - the 4, 5, 6, 7 yr old set, that really cant entertain themelves without making a major mess, nagging non stop, giving the mother no space to give attention to the younger siblings. a 10 yr old can read a book. a 10 yr old can enjoy a museum. Little ones need constant supervision, have a short attention span, and are easily bored.
As for what young tired moms plan to do when they are 40 or 50 - I think most of us are praying that our kids won't need help showering, wiping their backsides or tying their shoes by then, leaving us needing a bit less energy for physical care.
If you don't have kids around by that age, I and I hope you still do, then yes. If you DO have kids around... Ora, we'll talk in 15-20 years. Hint: the house does not begin to take care of itself and bigger children also have needs, though wiping is hopefully not one of them. And if all else fails, there are always grandchildren to take care of....
In all honesty I'm not so worried about entertaining kids age 9 and up.
it's the younger set - the 4, 5, 6, 7 yr old set, that really cant entertain themelves without making a major mess, nagging non stop, giving the mother no space to give attention to the younger siblings. a 10 yr old can read a book. a 10 yr old can enjoy a museum. Little ones need constant supervision, have a short attention span, and are easily bored.
Most of the ideas suggested here where addressing the 'older' ones. You people are not thinking of the mom who has 4 under 6.
I know people who have done it, but it IS murder to do in the city. I can't stand those writing that it depends on the mothers type, if she can handle it. It has nothing to do with that. For the average brooklyn mom living in a small place, no car, few little ones & no money it is down right hard. (remember she cannot afford cleaning help or takeout either) Not impossible, but definitely hard. And if she has any small circumstance on top of that, it makes it can make it a NEED for her. No I don't feel entitled to have my kids in day camp, but it's not the luxury you say it is.
My sister had her kids home last summer. For financial reasons & because she wanted to make a 'mommy daycamp'. It took loads of planning & energy to make it happen. Every step needs to be thought out when you don't have some of the things some of you take for granted. (backyard, car...)eg: She borrowed someones backyard across town & put a kiddie pool there... Nothing is wrong with extending yourself like that. Actually it's great for mom & kids, but for many it is simply impossible. Did I mention that she was NOT pregnant & her kids where ages 2-4-6.
I'm just curious . . . how many of you actually have people coming to your door for tzedakah for the purpose of sending their kids to camp? I can't remember a single one.
Actually there is an organization in our community that does raise money for camp. There are about 4 orgs that give out scholarships for day camp.
I have 2 kids at home with me and 3 kids in camp during the summer. I don't think I am bored at all during the day. The one son that I did keep home, I was told by his therapists that he would greatly benefit from camp. I love doing activities with the kids but I also have house work to do also. When I take the kids out for the day I am wiped when I come home because of the heat.
I totally understand what Mamabear is talking about. I used to live in a 3rd floor walk up with 5 kids and it was very very stressful on the kids. I couldn't do much activities with them while being able to take care of the little ones too. B"H for camp and B"H my community is NOT like you judgmental women and camps give scholarships.
I just wanted to add that Pickle Lady is the epitome of Superwoman. If she says she can't do something, I'll bet nobody can.
aww you made me blush thanks for the complement. I too think you are amazing mom that does so much with your kids.
I would like some of these judgmental moms to deal with our situations for one day and see how they would deal with it.
I have small kids. I take buses with small kids. I don't look forward to it, but it's hardly at the soul-sucking, insanity-creating level of difficulty either.
Anything sounds hard if you break it down like that. If I were to describe sending an email step by step it would sound like a lot of work. But in reality, you walk down the street, fold your stroller, keep an eye on the kids for a few minutes while waiting for the bus - not anything harder than what most people do each day (on that note - a "regular" day for many people doesn't involve time to themselves while the kids are in school).
are you required to fold your stroller and hold said baby while you board the bus wit packages, kids, and metrocard?
I cant manage that.
I don't believe ora is refering to the same buses as we are. I was not exagerating. It is very very difficult or nearly impossible. How are you supposed to supervise those few kids while holding a baby, bags & all. How are you suppposed to get onto the bus altogether - you need to carry the folded stroller, put it under a seat ...the kids...the baby...the bags.
I don't take buses because of this. I am far from spoiled & use public transit all the time, but this is why I use the subway instead. It is far from easy if it's 95% outside & your with the whole brood, but at least no folding the stroller. Instead you 'get away' with shlepping the stroller & all up two flights of stairs. Thats 8 flights total if you don't need to transfer.
The problem is, subsequent posts start stating opinions and feelings as fact, when they aren't.
Saying things like everyone deserves X, no child should have to live through the horror of doing without Y, when you are discussing most things aside from food, clothing, and shelter, is just a bit much.
Back in the day, you had what you could afford, and did without what you couldn't. And people grew up just fine.
I love this sentence. Sometimes I feel like such an outcast because I dont have cleaning lady or go on vacation. Like another poster said- as long as Im getting govt aid, I dont have these luxuries. Hopefully well get there soon.
Regarding sleep-away camp for teens- its not really optional for the boys, Its just like Yeshiva all year round. Girls would be more optional.
Last edited by 718 on Thu, Jun 30 2011, 12:12 am; edited 1 time in total
I always try to weigh the lesser of the 2 evils - shlep the stroller up & down the multiple flights of stairs on the subway, or fold the stroller (which is VERY hard to do one handed!!!)... what if you have a 28 pound toddler I that stroller, a toddler that runs away when taken out of the stroller???
I usually do not end up going anywhere unless dh drives me. he's only avaialble on weekends.
Going on day trip alone with my kids is someting I avoid at all costs. I avoid going anwyhwere with both of them unless it's a local destination - I dont travel with both of them. cant imagine doing it with 5 kids, aznd not for 10 weeks straight.
In all honesty I'm not so worried about entertaining kids age 9 and up.
it's the younger set - the 4, 5, 6, 7 yr old set, that really cant entertain themelves without making a major mess, nagging non stop, giving the mother no space to give attention to the younger siblings. a 10 yr old can read a book. a 10 yr old can enjoy a museum. Little ones need constant supervision, have a short attention span, and are easily bored.
Most of the ideas suggested here where addressing the 'older' ones. You people are not thinking of the mom who has 4 under 6.
I know people who have done it, but it IS murder to do in the city. I can't stand those writing that it depends on the mothers type, if she can handle it. It has nothing to do with that. For the average brooklyn mom living in a small place, no car, few little ones & no money it is down right hard. (remember she cannot afford cleaning help or takeout either) Not impossible, but definitely hard. And if she has any small circumstance on top of that, it makes it can make it a NEED for her. No I don't feel entitled to have my kids in day camp, but it's not the luxury you say it is.
My sister had her kids home last summer. For financial reasons & because she wanted to make a 'mommy daycamp'. It took loads of planning & energy to make it happen. Every step needs to be thought out when you don't have some of the things some of you take for granted. (backyard, car...)eg: She borrowed someones backyard across town & put a kiddie pool there... Nothing is wrong with extending yourself like that. Actually it's great for mom & kids, but for many it is simply impossible. Did I mention that she was NOT pregnant & her kids where ages 2-4-6.
I would make two separate categories
1) sense of entitlement- it doesnt matter whether your rich or poor, in both cases its not a good attitude. A healthy sense of entitelment is always important though (such as; I need to send my kids to daycamp for my sanity, I need a babysitter tonigth so I can go out for some fresh air).
2) luxuries-this varies with each person and situation, if you can afford it or not.
So if camp is a luxury or not- depends.
But I dont agree that camp comes from a sense of entitelment.
Last edited by 718 on Thu, Jun 30 2011, 1:15 am; edited 2 times in total
I have no choice with all the doctors appointments in the city that I've been having. Ds comes with me & we take the subway. I need to transfer once & it takes about an hour & a half. The other week, I did that two days in a row. It was one small appointment each time & I was out from before nine & back at 4pm those two days. I got up early to cook supper & came home extremely drained. p.s. I'm not allowed to shlep because my risks for hernia, so dh walked us to the subway in the morning to take up the carriage (totally out of his way...needed to get up really early to fit that in) & then I had ds walk the steps in the train while I took up the empty stroller when I arrived. Not ideal for me either, but I cannot afford to pay $100 for car each time. Go right ahead & call me lazy, spoiled...etc
Now all the big talkers here, should try the BUS with a FEW kids EVERY DAY in 90 degrees when they are pregnant or with a newborn.
btw this conversation is really irrelevant to me. I am a wahm, it doesn't make sence for me to keep my kids home all summer & not work. We would have no income. I am doing half & half because it worked out well this way & I am very happy with our plans. I only joined because I can't stand all this judgement.
I used to live in a 3rd floor walk up with 5 kids and it was very very stressful on the kids. I couldn't do much activities with them while being able to take care of the little ones too. B"H for camp and B"H my community is NOT like you judgmental women and camps give scholarships.
thanks for the complement. I too think you are amazing mom that does so much with your kids.
