When did this sense of entitlement come about? Perhaps right around when chosson presents and kalla jewels which break the bank came into vogue? Or maybe around the time young couples "couldn't" get married without the parents paying for a lavish wedding and home furnishings? Are any of the "camp is a right and a necessity even for SAHMs without money" people really reading what they are writing?
Since when is it okay for (healthy) people who have children decide "I can't handle it", "someone give me tzedaka so I don't have to spend a summer entertaining my children"?
Since when is "everyone is doing it" an excuse for those who can't afford it and are home to take of their children to beg for tzedaka so their kids can go to camp?
Since when is it not okay for children to have less financial resources to learn the (hard) facts of life?
Since when is the summer an excuse for a struggling mother to rely on take out, even if she can't afford it?
I read the excuse of "a weak generation" here over and over. And over again. Is that the only way to explain such behavior? That gives us permission to throw money at anything that gives us the slightest bit of stress, even if it means taking a hand-out for that? What kind of people choose to live that way? This is certainly NOT the Jewish way or mentality.
Camp is in place for children to be entertained during the summer. It solves a lot of "what shall I do all summer with the kids" problems for many parents, particularly those who work. Camp has ALWAYS been there. But "everyone" going hasn't. If you could afford it: great. If you were a working parent, it was a must. But for a whole bunch of kids with HEALTHY SAHMs to have a "need" to go to camp, or for their mother not to be able to figure out what to do with them? What is the message here?
I teach so the summer is also the only time that I am able to take care of appoinments, put my house in order...
That said I LOVE having my kids home! We have the best memories, the most relaxed summers, I get to enjoy going places that I wouldn't go to without my kids! I know that the house won't be the most organized and dinners will not be elaborate (think tuna sandwhiches in the park). If anyone wants some tips and ideas feel free to PM me.
So very often in the summer my appoinments don't get made (somehow I make it to the dentist twice a year) my house doesn't get reorganized (unless it's an activity) and we are still a happy family.
I still try to send my kids to camp every few summers even for half a summer because I would like them to have a real camp experience. But it's all a balance and you have to find what works for you.
Exactly the opposite! The world is a harsher place than it was 25 years ago. People have just tuned out the part where we're not entitled to "the good life" unless we can afford it. People have stopped looking ahead, stopped planning for the future, stopped learning for themselves and teaching their children about hevel havalim, stopped taking responsibility! People aren't spoiled, they are ruined and getting worse.
Well, they are spoiled. Want something? Throw it on your CC! Can't afford the house? No problem, here's a mortgage with 0% down and interest only payments! Etc...you don't need to work or wait for anything anymore.
Well, they are spoiled. Want something? Throw it on your CC! Can't afford the house? No problem, here's a mortgage with 0% down and interest only payments! Etc...you don't need to work or wait for anything anymore.
Yeah cause Saw and her ilk will bail 'em out. Thank you Saw for making the world a better place!
Do people NOT realize that there are financial repercussions to (a) being a SAHM (b) having children (c) camp costing more than a reasonal amount?
FTR, I'm keeping my kids home this summer. THey are 3, 1.5 and newborn. Everyone has been telling me I'm crazy and they should go to camp, but I realize that if I keep them home and do fun things iwth them myself, then I can stay home longer. In a few weeks my paid maternity ends and if I send the kids to camp it will be really expensive. Why would I do that?
(Never mind we are having a lot of fun this summer doing mainly free things plus gas...)
Luxuries are wonderful, and I truly enjoy those that I have. I love the fact that we have 1/2 day cleaning help once a week. But its not a necessity; if we couldn't afford it, I'd have to wash the floors myself.
Kids need to know the difference between a necessity and a luxury, and we need to teach them before they become spoiled and entitled. Eg, my conversation with DS.
Quote:
I need a computer for school.
Yes, you do. And we've given you Abba's old desktop computer.
But everyone has laptops.
That's nice.
I have OT issues, so its difficult for me to take notes by hand. (That's not really how he put it; I'm cutting to the chase here.)
You're right. If you can prove to me that you can touch type, there's an HP on sale for $300. I'll see if its in our budget.
I want a Mac.
That's $1000.
Everyone has a Mac.
If you *need* a laptop, I'll see if we can get the HP. If you *want* a Mac, no.
FTR, I'm keeping my kids home this summer. THey are 3, 1.5 and newborn. Everyone has been telling me I'm crazy and they should go to camp, but I realize that if I keep them home and do fun things iwth them myself, then I can stay home longer. In a few weeks my paid maternity ends and if I send the kids to camp it will be really expensive. Why would I do that?
(Never mind we are having a lot of fun this summer doing mainly free things plus gas...)
You are my hero, Saw. I was a SAHM as you know, and I paid the financial price. My choice. Even with a healthy DH income, we just had to make choices and camp on a regular basis for more than one kid at a time just wasn't one of them.
Take your kids up rt 17 to the State Park (I can't remember it's name) fab lake and beach, for nearly free (an annual membership was $35 IIRC when we lived there, for all the state parks). Or Shepherd's Lake near Monsey. To me, it's more work to get them out of the house in the am than to just wake up, smell the roses, and do whatever.
It sounded to me like that thread was written by someone who has a special reason to feel incapable of caring for her kids, but didn't want to say what, or didn't think it was relevant.
So it's hard to say if it's a "spoiled" thing, her reason could be spoiled or could be completely legitimate.
I was disturbed by the amother (not the OP of that thread as far as I could tell) who claimed that camp is necessary for all children. I hope her attitude isn't the norm. Most people I know in this generation do not share her approach.
Luxuries are wonderful, and I truly enjoy those that I have. I love the fact that we have 1/2 day cleaning help once a week. But its not a necessity; if we couldn't afford it, I'd have to wash the floors myself.
Kids need to know the difference between a necessity and a luxury, and we need to teach them before they become spoiled and entitled. Eg, my conversation with DS.
Quote:
I need a computer for school.
Yes, you do. And we've given you Abba's old desktop computer.
But everyone has laptops.
That's nice.
I have OT issues, so its difficult for me to take notes by hand. (That's not really how he put it; I'm cutting to the chase here.)
You're right. If you can prove to me that you can touch type, there's an HP on sale for $300. I'll see if its in our budget.
I want a Mac.
That's $1000.
Everyone has a Mac.
If you *need* a laptop, I'll see if we can get the HP. If you *want* a Mac, no.
Now, Barbara, multiply that child by several. Wouldn't your good parenting sense make even MORE good parenting sense? But there seems to be an inverse relationship. The more kids you have, the stupider you become. One would think that there is no harm in indulging a child. Or two. And I bet you could indulge (at what cost to the child's development, but that's for the future). But most women are indulging far more children PLUS themselves. How does that make sense? I am not even going to start sharing what the dialogue around here sounds like. Starting with "why don't we have cable" (cause I don't want you watching TV at all and in Israel where we live, no cable = blank screen).
Tamiri I haven't read the thread but I'm with you 100%.
And as you so correctly wrote, people can afford to be spoiled because others will always bail them out.
My kids didn't konw from "camp" and survived, they had kaytana at the gan and after that nothing until Bnai Akiva 5 days camp in August when they were ten or whatever.
and they survived. Even though there were lots of kids from their school who went to the equivalent of a three week day camp run by someone through the school every July. They never went. Boo hoo. I told them that the money I save on camp can eventually go for their therapy to tell someone else what a horrible childhood they had.
Today they thank me because they developed their own resources. The other side of the coin was that I was so laisser faire that as they got older, at times I didn't really know where they were for a few days at a time during the summer, but who cares, with a household full of kids you don't really miss one or two who are "somewhere"...right?
Just kidding. not.
Maybe that's another reason why as much as I gripe about things in the muddled east (not a typo) I'm still here. Better values.
It sounded to me like that thread was written by someone who has a special reason to feel incapable of caring for her kids, but didn't want to say what, or didn't think it was relevant.
So it's hard to say if it's a "spoiled" thing, her reason could be spoiled or could be completely legitimate.
I was disturbed by the amother (not the OP of that thread as far as I could tell) who claimed that camp is necessary for all children. I hope her attitude isn't the norm. Most people I know in this generation do not share her approach.
I was not aiming this post towards the OP. I specifically mentioned "healthy" as a prerequisite for taking care of one's children. Stress because a person worked all year (don't we all, and most of us don't have off in the summer) can be overcome in other ways than sending your own kids out to camp but as I don't know the OPs sitch I have nothing to say about her needs/wants/desires.
Why is it that on the Life in Israel thread, where we have people ranging from poor to wealthy, we don't get his type of thread? Is it because camp is generally a take it or leave it thing, and maxes out at 3 weeks most of the time? You know, there IS a sleep away summer camp at Kibbutz Shluchot, starting next week for 3-4 weeks - why aren't any of the LII ladies wishing someone would pay for their kid/s to go away there? Or a Chareidi equivalent? Why do we accept that we just have to deal with summer, even if we work all year/all year besides summer/are SAHM? Don't we also deal with major stress, lots of kids? What are we missing?
I will tell you: camp is not "the norm" and we don't have pressure to keep up with everyone else. I can't see any other explanation.
FTR, I'm keeping my kids home this summer. THey are 3, 1.5 and newborn. Everyone has been telling me I'm crazy and they should go to camp, but I realize that if I keep them home and do fun things iwth them myself, then I can stay home longer. In a few weeks my paid maternity ends and if I send the kids to camp it will be really expensive. Why would I do that?
(Never mind we are having a lot of fun this summer doing mainly free things plus gas...)
Camp at 3 and 1-1/2? That makes no sense.
Check out story hour at your local library, and possibly bookstores (esp independently owned bookstores). Check out free concerts in the evening (I'd say just the oldest one on that). Check out free Tuesday programs at local parks and zoos. Buy a plastic pool and a slip and slide. But for kids that age, honestly, even a trip to the local park for a turn on the swings and a run through the sprinklers is fun.
Tamiri I haven't read the thread but I'm with you 100%.
And as you so correctly wrote, people can afford to be spoiled because others will always bail them out.
My kids didn't konw from "camp" and survived, they had kaytana at the gan and after that nothing until Bnai Akiva 5 days camp in August when they were ten or whatever.
and they survived. Even though there were lots of kids from their school who went to the equivalent of a three week day camp run by someone through the school every July. They never went. Boo hoo. I told them that the money I save on camp can eventually go for their therapy to tell someone else what a horrible childhood they had.
Today they thank me because they developed their own resources. The other side of the coin was that I was so laisser faire that as they got older, at times I didn't really know where they were for a few days at a time during the summer, but who cares, with a household full of kids you don't really miss one or two who are "somewhere"...right?
Just kidding. not.
Maybe that's another reason why as much as I gripe about things in the muddled east (not a typo) I'm still here. Better values.
That's cause we're "rich", FS. We can make educated and financial choices based on what we have, not what we don't have. And we got this way by not being stupid when we weren't "rich".
Who cares where the kids are? They are having fun. Though today, in the computer age, it's easier to find them.....
It sounded to me like that thread was written by someone who has a special reason to feel incapable of caring for her kids, but didn't want to say what, or didn't think it was relevant.
So it's hard to say if it's a "spoiled" thing, her reason could be spoiled or could be completely legitimate.
I was disturbed by the amother (not the OP of that thread as far as I could tell) who claimed that camp is necessary for all children. I hope her attitude isn't the norm. Most people I know in this generation do not share her approach.
Exactly. It seems OP really had a reason she didn't want to share but it was the attitude of other amothers who merited the discussion on this thread.
For the record, I posted on that thread (not as the OP). I am sooo not spoiled. In fact I was surprised by the air conditioning thread because I sleep without air conditioner and only put it on on days when it gets unbearable... You may not be talking to me because I'm not asking for tzedaka to send to camp, but don't I get prioritize my own spending if I keep within my budget? Maybe I decided camp is more important than replacing broken furniture. (I only usually send half a summer).
Tamiri I haven't read the thread but I'm with you 100%.
And as you so correctly wrote, people can afford to be spoiled because others will always bail them out.
My kids didn't konw from "camp" and survived, they had kaytana at the gan and after that nothing until Bnai Akiva 5 days camp in August when they were ten or whatever.
and they survived. Even though there were lots of kids from their school who went to the equivalent of a three week day camp run by someone through the school every July. They never went. Boo hoo. I told them that the money I save on camp can eventually go for their therapy to tell someone else what a horrible childhood they had.
Today they thank me because they developed their own resources. The other side of the coin was that I was so laisser faire that as they got older, at times I didn't really know where they were for a few days at a time during the summer, but who cares, with a household full of kids you don't really miss one or two who are "somewhere"...right?
Just kidding. not.
Maybe that's another reason why as much as I gripe about things in the muddled east (not a typo) I'm still here. Better values.
I'm really, really glad my kids are older. It's a different world now. And don't forget, in the US there's no school for up to 10 weeks. It's not pashut, especially in the city for kids to be on the streets.
For the record, I posted on that thread (not as the OP). I am sooo not spoiled. In fact I was surprised by the air conditioning thread because I sleep without air conditioner and only put it on on days when it gets unbearable... You may not be talking to me because I'm not asking for tzedaka to send to camp, but don't I get prioritize my own spending if I keep within my budget? Maybe I decided camp is more important than replacing broken furniture. (I only usually send half a summer).
Why should anyone care how you prioritize YOUR OWN MONEY? The discussion is about entitlement in families who can't pay for camp. Mom "deserves" it, kids "deserve" it, the only thing to settle is who will pay for those deserving people to get what they deserve. And who will later teach the have-nots the facts of life if they always got what they "deserve" even if it's a luxury.
