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Abusive morah?!

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amother

OP ↓

Sat, Jan 04 2025, 6:35 pm

I know the title of my post is harsh and before anything I must say that Hashem gives Parnasah which is why I feel like I can’t do anything with the information I’ve been finding out (I feel like it is not my place to take someone else’s business down, please correct me if I am wrong).
I recently did a ton of research on a morah (the only one I could find with a slot for next year) and heard absolutely horrific things from MULTIPLE sources (people who’ve sent there and had to pull out or who have worked there). Can’t go into too many details about where it is as I said above I don’t feel it’s my place to take this person down.
Quite obviously will not be sending my child to such a place and will have to find a different place for my daughter and somehow get a slot but how on earth are mothers ok with sending to such places??

(I’m not trying to be overdramatic. I’m talking serious abuse, staff hitting, screaming at kids, locking them in rooms, letting them come home with tear-stained faces from crying all day, etc. and having only non Jewish workers when the owner explicitly tells parents there are morahs there at all times. This kind of thing.)
I heard the owner of the playgroup is a big smooth talker and a lot of parents don’t know exactly what’s going on but why risk it if there are so many people who DO know??
I’m super horrified and can’t imagine ever sending my child to such a place. I could just throw up.
Why are these “morahs” allowed to stay in business??

shabbatiscoming

Sat, Jan 04 2025, 6:38 pm

amother OP wrote:

If you know the info, why do you think others dont? And if you know this information and wouldnt send your own child, why not spread the information so that not even one more child gets abused.

amother

Antiquewhite ↓

Sat, Jan 04 2025, 6:39 pm

If you are talking about Fanny there are lots of threads on her

If it’s someone else, it is absolutely your place to say something. Child abuse should not be hidden under the rug for the sake of parnassah and of course her “business” should be stopped!!

amother

Hosta

Sat, Jan 04 2025, 6:40 pm

Is this morah Fanny or a different one?
I think it’s important to publicize the name so children are not abused

amother

Pearl

Sat, Jan 04 2025, 6:41 pm

I pulled my toddler out of such a place. I spoke to my rav and he said I dont need to publicize the details but I need to tell the moms who have previously asked for information about the group

Movernshaker

Sat, Jan 04 2025, 6:54 pm

amother OP wrote:

Her parnasa? That's Hashem's business and if you take it upon yourself? She can find a job working at the register of any store, in a sweater factory or as an Uber driver.
Abuse is something to speak out and resolve the situation. Children are too vulnerable and are the responsibility of adults and/or community. So, yes, speak out and get her out of being responsible for children. Whatever it takes.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sat, Jan 04 2025, 6:54 pm

amother Antiquewhite wrote:

It is not Fanny, I’m hearing similar things though.

amother

↑ Antiquewhite

Sat, Jan 04 2025, 6:59 pm

amother OP wrote:

It is not Fanny, I’m hearing similar things though.

It’s your job to say her name, to warn others. It is your job to do whatever you can to keep other children from being abused by this woman

ETA: I genuinely want to know why on earth I was hugged

amother

Denim ↓

Sat, Jan 04 2025, 7:26 pm

I am utterly shocked at the warpedness of your thinking. You have the power to protect children from being abused and you choose not to because you think it is more important not to damage the abuser’s parnassah??!? Banging head

Sorry to be dramatic but you have blood on your hands. You need to ask a Rav what to do.

amother

SandyBrown

Sat, Jan 04 2025, 7:30 pm

OP, it is YOUR achrayus to pick up the phone and call a rov and ask what you are obligated to say.
It's NOT always the right thing to be quiet.
Lo saamod al dam reyecha!!!!

cupcake123

Sat, Jan 04 2025, 7:31 pm

Op I would agree If perhaps it was grey area like the morah is very stict or something but you gave enough examples that you should definitely publicize the name.

amother

Green

Sat, Jan 04 2025, 7:35 pm

Why are they allowed to stay in business? Because people find out about the abuse and keep it to themselves like you are doing.

amother

Powderblue

Sat, Jan 04 2025, 7:36 pm

amother Denim wrote:

Sorry to be dramatic but you have blood on your hands. You need to ask a Rav what to do.

Why are you blaming her?

She never met the morah, her kid was never in that place. She only heard stuff that ppl told her. According to lashon hara rules, I'm not even sure she's allowed to believe it!!
What about all the other mothers who did send there ????

amother

Peachpuff

Sat, Jan 04 2025, 7:40 pm

Do the right thing and ask a rav . Bh you found out the info before sending. These poor babies they can’t even speak for themselves

amother

↑ Denim

Sat, Jan 04 2025, 7:43 pm

amother Powderblue wrote:

Once she heard this info, she cannot ignore it.
I’m blaming her for assuming that she should stay quiet and not ask a Rav what to do. It may be that the Rav will say she shouldn’t say anything (hard to imagine) but then she will have discharged her duty to do something about this situation. Until then, it is foolish and warped to think it is a bigger aveira to damage the parnassah of an abuser than to choose not to prevent further abuse.

As for the other mothers, they are equally or more liable, that’s pretty obvious.

amother

Sage

Sat, Jan 04 2025, 7:45 pm

I'm going to preface this by saying that I'm obviously not a rav. However, in terms of OP publicizing the information she heard, it's 100% assur from my understanding. This is not her own first hand account of the situation, she is not even 100% allowed to believe it, though she is allowed to protect herself on the chance that it's true. She would have to consult a rav on if she would be allowed to pass along the information if directly asked but that's about it

amother

Jetblack

Sat, Jan 04 2025, 7:52 pm

I once took a job in a playgroup (not in Lakewood) that had/has an excellent name. The ratio I was told it would be was totally off. There where way more children then they told the parents/owner told me there would be so things where chaotic. There was a bell and video camera so they could just bring each child to the door when their parent came to pick up so the parents never saw what was going on.

There was no way I could properly care for that amount of children and after a few weeks just quit. I couldn't handle seeing some of the children so sad, clutching their blankets and acting so "brave" holding back their tears and just not being physically able to give them the comfort they needed as it was impossible with that amount of children. The children where really neglected.
There where also a few other things that where a bit off about the playgroup (but nothing outright abusive as your discussing above)

As to why they had such a good name - if a child wasn't nervous/shy...like was outgoing, able to speak up for themselves, and didn't need a lot of comfort then it was a great place. They had a good program. The owner was a great talker and the parents loved her, she would act really warm to the kids and parents and etc by pickup....so there were kids who the place worked for and those parents would recommend it to everyone.

I looked on here for reviews of her - and there were plenty of great ones. Then a few threads where one person would chime in saying they should do their research or something similar like that and people responded very upset that they wrote that without giving more details and etc....and say how they had personal experience and what amazing place it is, and it's not fair to make people question things by writing that....

I've worked in a bunch of places and never saw such a thing before. I still sometimes have images of those kids in my mind.... As it wasn't "outright" abuse like hitting or yelling at the children, I've mostly kept it to myself (unless directly asked) but sometimes I feel guilty for not telling more people....

In general (as someone who's worked in a lot of places) I tell people the best place to send to is a place that you could just walk in anytime you want without the Morah getting a warning. Like a playgroup in a school where you get buzzed in by the main office and can just walk into the classroom (just giving a quick knock) without the teacher expecting you . And doing that at various times of day 3-4 times during the year. If the teachers are good and doing their job they won't mind /or will at least understand (we are talking about 2 yrs olds where most of the the day is playtime/nap time/ lunchtime so your likely not interrupting a lesson). If it helps, you can tell the Morah in the beginning of the year that once every long while you may come in early to pick up you child during the year (bec once in a while you get unexpectedly out of work earlier or whatever...) (if your child will cry if they see you and you leave, it's only fair to the Morah to be picking them up and not just there to "drop something off")

amother

↑ OP

Sat, Jan 04 2025, 8:16 pm

I’m going to reach out to my rov asap and ask him what to do. I spoke to some of the references again tonight and asked why don’t more people know about this?
They claim that the workers at the playgroup (non Jewish) are told by the owner to not allow parents into the place by drop off and pickup, and accept the children from the parents’ arms warmly and most parents have no reason to suspect (unless you’re involved which makes me raise an eyebrow.. why aren’t all parents involved? Why aren’t they pushing to go inside and see what’s going on??)
They also said she claims to take all different ages (0-3) but markets herself differently to each parent. (I.e hi I only take 2 year olds, but you wouldn’t know that I take more because you don’t come inside and see what’s going on).
I’m hearing more and more and getting such a gross feeling. I can’t believe this morah is allowed to run and has so many kids coming to her every day. I appreciate the push though, I’m going to find out what I’m supposed to do. I have a rov that I trust and I’ll see what he says..

amother

Cadetblue ↓

Sat, Jan 04 2025, 8:28 pm

Omg! I would definitely spread the word about the things you heard and allow others to know so they don’t send. I personally sent my child to a morah who I once “showed up” because I had a gut feeling something was off anyways I showed up and low and behold all children were screaming… kids were in strollers all day and the morah left and only the assistant was there herself. She told me the morah makes sure to come and be home when the parents pick up … non of the parents knew this!!! My
Point is a lot of parents don’t know what’s going on at morah. I think more parents should be “showing up” to really see what goes on. You can 100% percent telll everyone who NOT to send to and spread her name. I’m sorry I know it’s her parnassa but it’s your precious child we are talking about. Abuse is abuse. I don’t care weather it’s your parnassa or not.

amother

↑ Cadetblue

Sat, Jan 04 2025, 8:29 pm

Also is her initials MM? I wonder if it’s the same morah my friend sent to and had a TERRIBLE experience by.

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