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amother
OP
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 Tue, Jul 02 2024, 8:47 pm
My mil will be sitting shiva, her brother was niftar. What are the rules for my dh, and his siblings who live in the same town?
Their brother is making a chasuna tomorrow (Wednesday) we were all planning to go. Now what? My dh will ask his Rav but was wondering in the mean time... The levaya hasn't been yet. If we go to the chasuna we'll likely miss it.
ETA: I put it in this forum because I was struggling to find an anonymous enabled appropriate one.
A bit of background info, my father in law won't be going to the chasuna in the end but he'll need at least one of the children to stay behind to help him. One sil (my Dh sister) has so far got a heter to go because the kalla's mother will be really upset if she misses it. I just feel like it'll be my dh who will need to miss it  my sil is waiting to hear of his plans.
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amother
Clover
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Tue, Jul 02 2024, 8:51 pm
What do you mean what kind of restrictions? That kind of restrictions are you referring to?
Why would there be any restrictions? Aside from working things out with family so someone stays with parent etc
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amother
Cadetblue
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Tue, Jul 02 2024, 8:53 pm
| amother Clover wrote: | What do you mean what kind of restrictions? That kind of restrictions are you referring to?
Why would there be any restrictions? Aside from working things out with family so someone stays with parent etc |
There's an inyan not to go to simchos when one's parent is sitting shiva. It's a minhag, not halacha, but it's definitely something to keep in mind.
Every family is different.
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amother
OP
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Tue, Jul 02 2024, 8:54 pm
| amother Clover wrote: | | What do you mean what kind of restrictions? That kind of restrictions are you referring to? |
I heard if a parent is sitting shiva in the same town as you you can't even have a bath! Let alone go to a simcha. It's a shaile for sure, but just feel resentful because it's usually my dh who picks up the slack. And my son was so so excited because his friend is a cousin from the other side and they've been talking about it ever since the engagement which they also both went to. He'll be devastated! This is a great uncle of his who he's never seen before really. Doesn't know him at all. I might be able to send just him, or go with another sibling if there's space in the car.
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Elfrida
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Tue, Jul 02 2024, 8:56 pm
So.it was your husbands uncle who was niftar. This is a second degree relative, so your husband is not obligated by any hilchot aveilut.
I've never heard of any knock on effect where children are affected by hichot aveilut because their parent is sitting shiva. Obviously to be respectful around the shiva house, and to be menachem aveil, but nothing beyond that.
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amother
OP
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Tue, Jul 02 2024, 8:58 pm
| Elfrida wrote: | So.it was your husbands uncle who was niftar. This is a second degree relative, so your husband is not obligated by any hilchot aveilut.
I've never heard of any knock on effect where children are affected by hichot aveilut because their parent is sitting shiva. Obviously to be respectful around the shiva house, and to be menachem aveil, but nothing beyond that. |
Yes, not a grandparent. That makes sense. We'll see what the Rav says. I think the main issue here is that my fil really needs someone to take him to the levaya and be here for him. He's in a home but he needs extra care from the kids as he's in the sheltered flat part. But it doesn't have to be my dh. It can also be a son in law who's not a first degree relative of the kalla.
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amother
Ginger
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Tue, Jul 02 2024, 9:20 pm
| amother OP wrote: | My mil will be sitting shiva, her brother was niftar. What are the rules for my dh, and his siblings who live in the same town?
Their brother is making a chasuna tomorrow (Wednesday) we were all planning to go. Now what? My dh will ask his Rav but was wondering in the mean time... The levaya hasn't been yet. If we go to the chasuna we'll likely miss it.
ETA: I put it in this forum because I was struggling to find an anonymous enabled appropriate one.
A bit of background info, my father in law won't be going to the chasuna in the end but he'll need at least one of the children to stay behind to help him. One sil (my Dh sister) has so far got a heter to go because the kalla's mother will be really upset if she misses it. I just feel like it'll be my dh who will need to miss it my sil is waiting to hear of his plans. |
Like someone else said, I think second degree is different.
Dh grandparent was niftar day of a family wedding.
We were told to go to the wedding (pre-levaya) and Sheva brachos.
No music week of shiva for the grandkids but I think that is more of an extra thing as opposed to across the board.
Dayan said yes to the simchos for the grandkids (but not if interfered with Levaya).
There was also something about work. Pre-levaya dh was able to do work for his parent by "buying" the business. But after the levaya during shiva he couldn't do work for the avel that was for that business. But I'm not sure of the details just something with the avels work was a question.
Ask your Rabbi though.
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amother
Buttercup
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Tue, Jul 02 2024, 9:22 pm
It doesn't matter what degree the relative is to you. There is definitely a not well known halacha that someone may not shower in the same city where his/her parent is sitting Shiva.
Ask your LOR.
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Reality
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Tue, Jul 02 2024, 9:45 pm
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Please ask your Rav before following the "chumras" posted here. When DH's grandparent passed away my in-laws insisted that he couldn't go to simchas and other things during Shiva. When my DH actually asked a Rav he was told chas v'shalom, he is not the one sitting Shiva and it is ossur to take on signs of mourning when you aren't supposed to.
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amother
DarkCyan
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Tue, Jul 02 2024, 9:46 pm
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We were told it’s just no music
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amother
Clover
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Tue, Jul 02 2024, 9:48 pm
| amother Cadetblue wrote: | There's an inyan not to go to simchos when one's parent is sitting shiva. It's a minhag, not halacha, but it's definitely something to keep in mind.
Every family is different. |
I've never heard of this, seems like it's community specific
In which case Imamother isn't really going to help you op
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Iymnok
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Tue, Jul 02 2024, 9:54 pm
Is there another person who can care for him, at least part of the time? A close friend, SIL, paid help, etc?
I'm sorry OP, this is a crazy situation!
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amother
Clematis
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Tue, Jul 02 2024, 9:56 pm
| amother Buttercup wrote: | It doesn't matter what degree the relative is to you. There is definitely a not well known halacha that someone may not shower in the same city where his/her parent is sitting Shiva.
Ask your LOR. |
We specifically asked our rav when dh was sitting shiva and my sons were in that city and he said showers were fine. I think like with many of hilchos aveilus, the “ask your LOR” part is the most important since many are minhag based.
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amother
Thistle
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Wed, Jul 03 2024, 1:39 am
There definitely are halachos that apply when one is the town where one's parent is sitting shiva (my understanding is that the halachos are based on kibbud av vaem, not hilchos avelus), however it is possible that simchas chosson vekallah trumps that, especially if the parent sitting shiva would want you to go to the simcha.
As always, ask your LOR!
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amother
OP
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Wed, Jul 03 2024, 1:49 am
| amother Thistle wrote: | There definitely are halachos that apply when one is the town where one's parent is sitting shiva (my understanding is that the halachos are based on kibbud av vaem, not hilchos avelus), however it is possible that simchas chosson vekallah trumps that, especially if the parent sitting shiva would want you to go to the simcha.
As always, ask your LOR! |
Yes you're right! Our Rav said if my in laws are happy for us to go then we should still go. One son is staying behind, the rest of us are going. Our Rav said only Luke warm showers when needed, no haircuts, shaving etc until after Shabbos. My dh said it's halacha, not a minhag.
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amother
Glitter
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Wed, Jul 03 2024, 1:55 am
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I've never heard of this halacha, so I'd be interested to know the source.
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amother
OP
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Wed, Jul 03 2024, 2:05 am
| amother Glitter wrote: | | I've never heard of this halacha, so I'd be interested to know the source. |
This is what all of our Rav's said. We all have different....
I don't have a source, sorry.
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amother
Glitter
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Wed, Jul 03 2024, 2:09 am
| amother OP wrote: | This is what all of our Rav's said. We all have different....
I don't have a source, sorry. |
Your Rav could be advising you about how to apply the minhag of your community, but you say that your husband says it is a halacha, not a minhag. Does he have a source for that halacha?
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amother
OP
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Wed, Jul 03 2024, 2:13 am
| amother Glitter wrote: | | Your Rav could be advising you about how to apply the minhag of your community, but you say that your husband says it is a halacha, not a minhag. Does he have a source for that halacha? |
That could be, we're in the UK. I can ask him later, he's at work now and then he'll be driving but I'll ask bli neder.
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Elfrida
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Wed, Jul 03 2024, 3:42 am
I found a reference in the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch.
He lists the relatives for whom one is chayav to sit shiva, then in the next paragraph he mentions that for other close relatives there is a custom - נוהגים - to display certain signs of mourning until Shabbos after the kevurah.
ר״ג
עַל שִׁבְעָה קְרוֹבִים חַיָבִים לְהִתְאַבֵּל, אָבִיו וְאִמּוֹ, בְּנוֹ וּבִתּוֹ, אָחִיו וַאֲחוֹתוֹ בֵּין מִן הָאָב בֵּין מִן הָאֵם, וַאֲפִלּוּ הָיְתָה אֲחוֹתוֹ נְשׂוּאָה לְאִישׁ; הָאִישׁ עַל אִשְׁתּוֹ, וְהָאִשָׁה עַל בַּעְלָהּ.
נוהגין שֶׁגַּם שְׁאָר קְרוֹבִים, מַרְאִים קְצָת אֲבֵלוּת בְּעַצְמָם שָׁבוּעַ הַרִאשוֹן עַד אַחַר הַשַׁבָּת, שֶׁאֵין רוֹחֲצִין בְּחַמִּין, וְאֵין מְשַׁנִּין קְצָת בִּגְדֵיהֶם כְּמוֹ בִּשְׁאָר שַׁבָּת. וְאֵין כָּל הַקְּרוֹבִים שָׁוִין בָּזֶה.
I couldnt find it inside, but apparently Rav Ovadiah Yosef felt that this didn't apply at all nowadays. Other sources state that ine who doesn't observe it, has no need to take it on.
Interestingly, these sources see it as a form of lesser mourning, for more distant relatives. I didn't see any source that put it as, the OP did, as a consequence of parents sitting shiva. (Someone above mentioned this might be considered a sub-clause of kibbud av v'em, but I didn't look in those halachos.) Obviously the OP should follow her Rav, but the sources I saw referenced this custom as applying to grandparents, grandchildren, and parents in law, with no mention of it applying to an uncle.
Last edited by Elfrida on Wed, Jul 03 2024, 4:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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