Swimming in a mixed pool

Hashem_Yaazor

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 9:13 pm

Response from my Rav when I asked about accepting an invite my daughter had to a water park:
I would consider it to be mixed swimming. I do not understand how people are ok with it. I assume they wear cover-ups but mixed swimming even with cover ups is not ok. I would think a 10.5 year old would be too old. (In general I would not go by age but once she looks older than a little girl and more like a young women.)

↑ tulip3 ↓

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 9:20 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

Why is there a tnsius issue and how she looks vs age? The girls are fully covered. Going down a slide fully dressed in a tube, with a friend or solo is nothing like swimming...

amother

↑ Khaki ↓

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 9:29 pm

amother Candycane wrote:

How is this relevant? Going on vacation to a resort does not fall in this category. Which is what op is asking about. That’s leisure swimming for fun. Being that so many frum people have pools that they rent out nowadays I can’t see this ever being the only option anyway.

It's relevant to the post I answered. Someone asked which reputable Rav permits mixed swimming. I answered to that question.

amother

↑ Candycane ↓

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 9:33 pm

amother Khaki wrote:

It's relevant to the post I answered. Someone asked which reputable Rav permits mixed swimming. I answered to that question.

We were all asking in this specific situation. I’m aware of the medical exemption which is not really relevant to the discussion about leisure swim.

amother

↑ Obsidian

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 9:35 pm

tulip3 wrote:

Why is there a tnsius issue and how she looks vs age? The girls are fully covered. Going down a slide fully dressed in a tube, with a friend or solo is nothing like swimming...

I’ve had a swim dress go completely up in a tube in a slide. And once you fall in the water nothing stays down.
I think what HaShem Yaazor got told is pretty much standard.

B'Syata D'Shmya ↓

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 10:53 pm

sequoia wrote:

I am personally acquainted with a heimish 85-year-old lady who goes swimming for exercise in a normal bathing suit. She does not care what anyone thinks lol, she survived Siberia Smile

You answered very well, she doesnt care what anyone thinks, after surviving Siberia, I can understand that.

This is such a personal thing. I know women who daven fervently 3 times a day without fail, who will go mixed swimming in a regular bathing suit, and women who barely daven brachos, who would never, ever, go mixed swimming - even for exercise. Such an individual thing.
We really shouldnt be judging.

↑ B'Syata D'Shmya ↓

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 11:06 pm

tulip3 wrote:

Read this, it's not as simple and there's leeway here.
https://www.deracheha.org/answ.....ming/

I read it, I dont see the leeway. Its quite clear from the article that mixed swimming is reason for divorce (Eiruvin 18B). The issur seems quite serious. This is not an easy place to say "leeway". Even Rav Moshe Feinstein Zatzal gave the man a list of restrictions: "permits a man to enter a mixed beach only if: he is confident it won’t lead to s-xual fantasizing, he makes an effort not to look at what he shouldn’t, and he either needs to pass through that way or has a medical need to be at the beach.".
So sure a man can go to a mixed beach if he can fulfill that criteria.

The conclusion is not conclusive - "so it could be permissible for a woman to swim in tzanua attire in a number of settings, and for male family members to join in environments in which they can successfully keep some distance from others and in which tzanua bathing attire and conduct is the norm."

Could be...is not It is permissible. The man gets a " permissible" if he follows a list of dont do this and dont do that and then you can. The woman is "could be permissible" in a "number of settings (not clear which), as long as men keep distance, and the bathing attire and conduct is the norm (what that means is not clear to me).

Bottom line - its complicated.

amother

↑ Mauve

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 11:21 pm

amother Peach wrote:

Can you explain this logic to me. If you hold leggings is enough covering why wear longer skirts and if you don't why is it ok now. I genuinely don't understand it for over bas mitzvah girls but would love to Wink

If im wearing a skirt with leggings and the skirt rides up underwater, no one really sees anything. Most people arent hanging out underwater to check out the outline of my inner thigh covered in leggings.

Maybe strict letter of the law thats not ideal but I dont live my life that way in any area so im not sure why I would suddenly be super strict about this.

If I was davening every day, never forgetting any brachos, keeping every aspect of shabbos perfectly, never talking lashon harah, never snapping or losing my temper, eating only pas yisroel, yoshon, cholov Yisrael, then probably the thought of my legging covered leg being exposed underwater would also be something that I would never consider but since im nowhere near perfect, its not even in my frame of reference to worry that its a problem.

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 1:13 am

amother Sienna wrote:

A pool I know, a beach if you're far from the next person is a problem?

I've never met a Chareidi or chassidish person in Israel who told me it's assur for them to go to a seperate beach. This is a new opinion to me.

amother

Chestnut

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 1:18 am

amother Khaki wrote:

Yes it's assur for a man & women to be in the same body of water. Even if you're dressed tzenuis.
I think you should discuss it with your Rav to gain clarity.

I’m pretty sure that’s regarding a couple in nidda.

DrMom

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 1:39 am

salt wrote:

Aren't we talking about mixed pools and beaches?

I think the idea is that other posters claim that swimming in the sea is forbidden, presumably because if you are swimming in the sea, then you are technically sharing a body of water with everybody else bathing in the sea at the same time, which will invariably include some men.

amother

Sapphire

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 6:29 am

amother Burntblack wrote:

I called my Rav to ask him if I could continue going mixed swimming.

He said m’ikur hadin it’s not assur, but it’s not the right thing

That’s so interesting shivim panini Latorah.
I asked my Rav and he said there is absolutely no heter, he tried to find one and he can’t, it’s completely assur

↑ Ruchel ↓

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 7:30 am

So then why is tznius dress suit for?
Swim for lady only and wear whatever. I'm not even into swimming. I can spend a decade sans mixed swimming that isn't family. But if people look normal I'll go and if they're clean, like some beaches in Brittany were frankly many people just walk in the water, I'd bring my family.

↑ tulip3

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 7:36 am

amother Obsidian wrote:

I’ve had a swim dress go completely up in a tube in a slide. And once you fall in the water nothing stays down.
I think what HaShem Yaazor got told is pretty much standard.

So a rollercoaster should be assur too.
There are some wrap skirts for swimming that don't ride up in a pool.

amother

↑ Candycane ↓

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 8:11 am

Ruchel wrote:

It’s for sitting in the sand at the beach, or running after your toddler in a spray park.. or swimming in a girl’s only pool that might not be 100% private and some can see the pool from far.

amother

↑ Candycane ↓

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 8:11 am

Chayalle wrote:

I know a family that has a very large pool. I heard they got a psak from a very prominent Lakewood Rav that they can have family swim, with the men congregating in one end, and the women at the other end in cover-ups.

By mixed you mean father, mother and kids? Or you mean extended family? Because if it’s extended family every Lakewood family I know was told the opposite.