Separation of Men and Women.....

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Jan 29 2006, 5:51 pm

oops, sorry about the spelling! embarrassed

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Sun, Jan 29 2006, 6:11 pm

It was not Rav Moshe Feinstein who advocated mixed seating.

I'm really sorry that I don't have the sources here, I have no acess to an IM at this point.

The issue is not just dancing, it is also socializing.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Mon, Jan 30 2006, 3:27 am

Quote:

[I would have been COMPLETELY mortified to be put in this positon as a single person. Did I come to the wedding to be there for my friend's simcha or to be the victim of poorly executed "shadchanus"?

I can't speak for singles, but I find that separate seating is much more egalitarian and much more comfortable, and I imagine that for many singles, the same is true: who wants to sit at "The Singles Table" with strangers and not their married friends? But then, who wants to sit with married couples and be the only single person there? I imagine it's much more comfortable and less embarrassing with separate seating.]

crayon210, to what you wrote, and I copied it here so that you are quoted correctly, about ppl coming to a wedding not for shaddchanut purposses, I did not do that at all. and you wrote that the single ppl would want to sit with their married friends and not at a singles table with strangers.
to answer you about that, at my wedding, I said that there were three tables for all of my friends and all of my chatans friends. they could sit however they wanted. the way that it ended up were all of my husbands yehiva friends sat at one table, a table with my seminary friends, married or not say together and other friends who know eachother sat together, so it was all done in good taste and we even told our friends before the wedding so that they knew what we were doing. it was not so that we would be shaddchaniot, my husband and I even realized that none of my friends and noe of his friends were shayach to eachother, but we wanted there to be an atmosphere that was relaxed and nobody seemed to complain, even the yeshiva boys (they sat all together anyway, not with any girls)

↑ sarahd

Mon, Jan 30 2006, 5:04 am

technic wrote:

sarahd wrote:

Crayon, what is the halacha that mandates separate seating? Yes, there has to be a separation at weddings since dancing will take place and men may not watch women dancing."

but couldnt they DANCE separately (behind mechitza) yet still SIT 2gether...????

That doesn't usually happen, since the tables are around the dance floor. Have you ever seen a dance floor with mechitzos around the perimeter as well as down the middle (as would have to happen in order for men not to be able to see the women)?

↑ technic ↓

Mon, Jan 30 2006, 5:11 am

point taken Very Happy

...but it IS possible 2 have an area cordoned off 4 the women 2 dance in - I know cos I was there!!!! Wink

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Mon, Jan 30 2006, 6:01 am

I agree about the cordoned off dancing sections. I have been to wedding like that. I also have been to weddings where the kallah's family had relatives that would only come to the wedding if it was separate seating so they made a littel section at one corner just for them to sit separate and they came and were all misameach haChatan v' hakallah and everyone was happy.

Motek ↓

Mon, Jan 30 2006, 6:14 am

Blossom wrote:

Is is in other words Taruvos?? I'm also interested in an elaboration of this halachah.

check out the thread in this section (Judaism) entitled, "No Safeguard Against Arayos"

http://imamother.com/forum/vie.....185f8

when people sneer at what they consider unnecessary separation and think that it's just too much and that certain people are living in the Dark Ages, they should consider what Chazal say: THERE IS NO SAFEGUARD AGAINST IMMORAL BEHAVIOR!

I have also been in the situation of having a wedding where just me or just my husband knew the people. So you either go on your own since the other spouse has no interest in going or (if it's a longer drive there)you enjoy traveling together and spend some time at the hall together too, even if you're not sitting together.

↑ Motek ↓

Mon, Jan 30 2006, 6:18 am

I have attended weddings of Modern Orthodox families where I was seated with my husband. That part was nice. The dancing was a problem and I was not able to be mesamei'ach the kalla since, although there was a mechitza, the dancing women were surrounded by men. I did not think my approach should be, "too bad on them, they shouldn't look."

chen ↓

Mon, Jan 30 2006, 6:20 am

technic wrote:

whats wrong w sitting at a round table mm ww mm ww mm ww etc, so that everyone is either next 2 a) their spouse and b) someone of the same relations????

(aaarrrrgh ive now had 2 edit this bcos of course I didnt type "of the same relations", I typed "of the same relations"!!! Rolling Eyes

)

LOL. Technic, the trouble-free term is "gender".

↑ technic

Mon, Jan 30 2006, 6:32 am

gryp ↓

Mon, Jan 30 2006, 7:05 am

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Jan 30 2006, 9:41 am

I have nothing much to add, but I hate going to events "with my husband" where I have to go mingle with crowds of strangers. Especially New York weddings where they don't even have seating cards. It is not just boring it is painfully embarrassing to attend events where I don't know anyone, I don't even know who to say Mazel Tov to.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Mon, Jan 30 2006, 9:51 am

amother, for me it is the opposite. I hate mingling without my husband. my husband learns in a yeshiva that would never have a mixed event and so he knows all of the guys but I dont know any of the wives, weve only been married 5 months, and so I feel VERY uncomfortable without my husband and I feel like I am among a whole bunch of strangers.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Jan 30 2006, 10:21 am

ytwh1 wrote:

no, that is not the opposite, it is exactly the situation I am talking about. I go to the event with my husband but I can't mingle with him since it is not a mixed event, so I have to mingle with my husband's friends' wives, myself. (hope that is clearer.)

when it is family seating I don't mind, since I know him and we are together.

tport

Mon, Jan 30 2006, 10:23 am

ytwh- Are there events with the yeshiva wives together? If so, a lot of them could be feeling the same way as you. You could try to introduce yourself and maybe you'll even make friends. It's nice to have friends with the wives of the people your husband is with all day. (I know it is not easy- I'm shy and don't like to do it, but it is worth it.) Smile

↑ chen

Mon, Jan 30 2006, 10:33 am

technic wrote:

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Mon, Jan 30 2006, 11:56 am

Quote:

tport, well, that would be a bit difficult as we live in another town from where the yeshiva is and we rarely do things with the yeshiva so I know that the other girls do know eachother, its just me that does not know anyone. and I am very different from these girls and so I know that it would be just a hello and how are you. I would not really have anything to talk about with them.

SMG

Mon, Jan 30 2006, 1:01 pm

Shortly after I got married, my husband and I went to the wedding of a close friend of his. I wanted to go b/c at that point I knew the chasan and kallah fairly well, but I didn't know anyone else at all. I was at a table with a bunch of strangers and noone said a word to me.
In the middle of the dancing, I met my husband outside and although I didn't say anything, he could tell I was miserable. He told me to wait a few minutes. When he came back, he was with another man and then his wife came. The husbands had been talking about how their wives didn't know anyone there, and they brought us together and introduced us.
We still aren't friends, but over the last several years we've run into each other at a handful of simchas and can always joke about being "friends" when we don't know anyone else.
I now make a point to be friendlier when at a simcha and only sitting with strangers, or if I see someone else who doesn't know anyone.

I don't think that mixed seating at a chasunah is a good idea for all of the above stated reasons. It is somewhat of a religious affair, and even a cordoned off section for women's dancing leaves people feeling isolated and cut off. I don't dance at chasunahs where men don't have a boundary because the seating was mixed so they feel privy to both sides of the mechitzah. (It also bothers me when women stand on the men's side.)

I think the most important thing is that it should be comfortable for the baalei simcha and if you don't like it, don't go.

↑ Blossom ↓

Mon, Jan 30 2006, 2:06 pm

We had one very elite bar mitzvah where the dancing was seperate but no mechitza. The ladies at 1 side and men at the other LOL I thought we might as well dance together. ( I'm kidding )
I thought it was the most untznius thing where ladies - most not very modestly dressed- were dancing right in front of men. I've attended only Chassidic and Litvishe weddings though, where it is seperate throughout.
I can't believe most people posting here actually only attended mixed weddings. What schools are you all from? My cousins from TAG had seperate seating.
I am asking this in a very friendly tone Smile

. I am really curious. I never questioned mixed seating since I accepted it as part of our religion. But here I see most of you are favoring mixed seating. So I'm really interested to hear more about it.

TzenaRena

Mon, Jan 30 2006, 3:40 pm

This is from a letter that the Lubavitcher Rebbe wrote to someone explaining the necessity of a mechitza by weddings. (free translation)

1st day of Rosh Chodesh Iyar, 5714
In connection with various rumors which have reached me, and astound me , despite my many burdens I am writing the following lines.

As was given over to me (but I hope that it will be clarified as inaccurately) your family opposes that the arrangements of your daughter….’s wedding with her choson…..should be in accordance with the requirement of the Shulchan Aruch that there should be a separation between men and women.

I would therefore like to explain the situation as I see it:

When we arrange a Chasunah with a mechitza, as our holy Torah requires, the Torah rules that one should say “she'hasimcha b’me'oinoi” , meaning – that when we mention the name of HaKadosh Baruch Hu, we mention it in connection with Simcha, which means to inspire joy in the world, and first and foremost to the chosson and kallah.

It is surely superfluous to describe what has been happening in the most recent years in the world at large, and in the Jewish nation in particular. And if at all times, there was a necessity to come on to Hakadosh Baruch Hu for blessing and success and more than this, for a healthy and happy life, then in our generation this is all the more necessary, and the only one who is capable of guaranteeing this is He who is Master of the entire world, Hakadosh Baruch Hu.

Since then, Rabbi…..has asked me my opinion in this shidduch, and when your question about it reached me, I found it my obligation and privilege to assure that when your daughter, and the chosson the Rav, may he be well begin their joint lives, in a manner in which it is anticipated abundant blessings from Hashem may He be blessed, that they should have a healthy and happy home, something which has on it as said, the agreement of our holy Torah – When it is possible to say during the wedding “ shehaSimcha B’me’oinoi”; when the Torah rules as such, it is understood that no one is capable of changing that, and therefore I wondered about the fact that parents, who do everything so that their children will be happy, as much as depends on them, should want to invest kochois to withhold that by thier daughter’s chasunah the Simcha should rule, something which brings afterwards chv that in a certain measure, it will also be missing from their lives r”l.

Marriages take place in order to build a home for decades, and here, it is okay for parents to endanger that which is relevant to their daughter for tens of years, so that for a few hours of a wedding celebration they should find favor in the eyes of people who don’t know the halachos in Shulchan Aruch or disregard them, or in the eyes of frivolous people who are ready to jeapordize a future of decades, for the sake of an imaginary and fleeting pleasure. I wonder where the parents get such broad shoulders to carry this responsibility.

My inyan is not to force anyone to do as I think, in general its not my objective to push my opinion on anybody, and also not to say harsh words, therefore I wish to conclude my letter only with positive things, that when I gave my haskama to the shidduch, I was sure that the parents from their side will do all that is dependent upon them that their daughter and future son in law should be guaranteed good and happiness, as much as possible, for the decades that they will live together,

and it is self understood, that it would be irrelevant whether the friends of the kallah would be happy or not - and just that the holy Torah should be satisfied with the arrangements of the Chasssunah, and as mentioned above, if we really want that in this marriage, the Torah should rule - that it will be possible to say “shehasimcha b’meoino”, and through this, there should rest simcha for the entire life- the Shulchan Aruch establishes that the Chassunah has to be with a mechitza.

It is known to me that there were many weddings also of religious people without mechitzos, to our sorrow. But it is also known to me, to our sorrow the troubles that came after that. Hashem should bless you that you will be able to give only good news in Gashmius and Ruchnius.

(all bold and italics is mine - sy)