What do you think? (shomer negiah)

amother

↑ OP ↓

Today at 5:54 am

amother Cinnamon wrote:

He really think that a religious person would ever noticed those things? I am quite religious and I had a religious doctor that shook my hand and I was just so shocked that I shook it but the next time I went in, I asked him not to. And I was so nervous about it. Sometimes you just do it out of reflex. And honestly, I can’t talk a lot of people cover their hair these days. we look extremely real and sometimes I question myself is wearing Hair color or not no religious person is going to judge any of these things.

She's actually worried about what her secular Jewish coworker is thinking, that's her main worry.

amother

↑ Lightcyan

Today at 5:54 am

amother OP wrote:

So this happens to be my friend. She dresses tznius, covers her hair only with a headband, she keeps kashrut and Shabbat and it's not that she's not shomer negiah, she is, but in the workplace or within a secular circle, she has a policy to not embarrass so if someone is going to shake hands or going for a mini hug she is okay with that.

So her coworker who is Jewish and somewhat aware forgot and gave her like a small hug, she said it looked like the other person felt awkward afterwards (even though of course she herself also felt awkward ) and said bye from a distance, so now she is questioning her policy of not saying anything when someone wants to shake hands or hug.

I didn't really know what to tell her, and now she is embarrassed because she is thinking that the coworker might be thinking she crossed a line for his sake by allowing it and it was not the intention at all, she was simply trying to not make a big deal out of it.

I think this is her reading into things, and her own discomfort that's making it loom much larger to her. Even if this co-worker realized right something right after, they probably at most felt a little awkward that it might have been a faux pas for a few minutes after, but probably forgot about it by the end of the day. They aren't judging this woman or wondering about her religious levels. Faux pas happen, and everyone moves on.

imasinger

Today at 6:04 am

Is it possible that she's projecting her own mixed feelings onto the colleague?

So that the real issue could be "I'm confused about what I want my boundaries and commitment to halacha to be, and what I'll think of myself", rather than, "I'm worried that my colleague will think I'm a religious fraud"?

It might be helpful for her to speak with a rav, rebbetzin, oe other halachic advisor, and think through how she might have preferred to handle the encounter, so she can make a plan for being in such a situation again.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Today at 6:10 am

imasinger wrote:

Yeah I think for her is a bit of both, wanting to follow halacha but on the other hand she doesn't want to make anyone feel awkward, and in the end she felt like both felt awkward and it might have been worse in this case than if she had just not hugged., and then she worried about people thinking she is fake religious.

↑ imaima

Today at 6:11 am

amother OP wrote:

Yes! This is what I was thinking! Like wold a secular person assume that person is fake religious?

They might but that’s on them. I have witnessed that especially if the secular person is only familiar with one kind of Orthodox Judaism for example chabad.

amother

Natural ↓

Today at 6:15 am

amother OP wrote:

I happen to have a similar policy: I shake hands with non-Jews by necessity, usually a doctor or a lawyer. We made it up with dh prior to marriage. However I don’t shake hands with secular Jews who are aware of orthodox Judaism and with whom I am explicitly observant, as opposed to being just a patient/ client

amother

↑ OP ↓

Today at 6:18 am

amother Natural wrote:

But isn't it hard to know who is aware and to what extent? Like what if he saw you shaking hands with one person but not the other?

essie14

Today at 6:55 am

It's extremely common in my circles to shake hands with coworkers/lawyers/doctors etc. It's lo b'derech chiba.
When I worked in corporate America my co workers knew I kept shabbat and kosher but they had no concept of shomer negiya and I had no interest in bringing it up with them. We didn't spend hours schmoozing about our religious practices.
Secular people don't think anyone is fake religious. They're not observing frum jews the way frum jews observe each other.
I'm thinking of that recent thread here where a woman saw someone she knew eating obvious treif and wanted to know of she should say something. And there were responses about being DLK.
So for example, if my coworker would see me walking out of Panera Bread, she would just assume that I found something kosher to eat there. She doesn't understand the nuances of kashrut. She wouldn't think I'm not religious anymore and she wouldn't really care anyway.

amother

Forsythia

Today at 8:10 am

I don’t have an answer but it reminded me of an experience I had years ago. I was interning at a public school and made it clear that I can’t shake hands. Then my internship ended and I had an interview at another school. I was of the opinion that if the male principal extended his hand at the interview, I could passively let him shake it (dead fish heter type). I got the job. It happened to be that a colleague from my internship school now worked at this school I got hired at and I was talking to him when my job started and he said when he saw that I interviewed there he told the principal “oh I bet she didn’t shake your hand” and the principal said “ummm no she did….” It was such a huge mussar lesson for me. I was so incredibly embarrassed and ashamed of myself. Bh I’ve been really working hard to improve in this area. It’s really hard when you work in a secular environment and are constantly in this position but bh it’s gotten so much easier with practice and time.

amother

Mistyrose

Today at 11:38 am

I really struggle with SN like this I grew up secular and not shaking hands was a big Shanda it meant you were rude, not nice, not polite etc. One of our MP’s 20 years ago got rejected of shaking hands with an Muslim man and she said to him “why do you think I’m not equal? I’m as equal as you” they held an survey among the Dutch people (yes this is the Netherlands) and most people agreed that it was a Shanda what the Iman did from the far left to the far right…

So at the end I shake hands I don’t kiss don’t have relations I do shake hands especially with colleagues or when it has to. Oh and we shake hands here with everyone with the doctor, the dentist, the therapist, the vet… it is really brought to me that if I not do that I’m being rude and offensive my mum literally yelled at my my DH super chareidi family because of this.

amother

Begonia

Today at 12:01 pm

I’m working for over 20 years already. After Covid I just stopped shaking hands. My coworkers are Hindu or Muslim anyway and they most likely don’t want to be shaking hands either. So I’m older, and comfortable in my own skin. And have gotten more religious as the years go by.

However, I was just by my frum doctor. And he chose to do the exam instead of the lady PAs. I was tired and in a rush. But I felt really awkward because he was touching me. So it’s a new battle for me - should I have asked for a lady? My doctor has been amazing to me and has really gone above and beyond for me and my family, and I thought it would be insulting to tell him I didn’t want him to examine me. (I wasn’t undressed but still, he put the stethoscope on me and drew blood and so on).