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-> Parenting our children
amother
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 Today at 12:42 am
Copied from chabad website:
Hitting a Parent
Negative Commandment 319
By Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon ("Maimonides"); translated by Berel Bell
From the Sichos in English Collection
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Negative Commandment 318
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Negative Commandment 320
The 319th prohibition is that we are forbidden from striking [either of] our parents.
For this prohibition, too, there is no specific verse written in the Torah. Only the punishment is written,1 "Whoever strikes one's father or mother shall be put to death." The derivation of the actual prohibition against striking his father is similar to that of cursing one's father, as we explained.2 In this case, prohibition 300, which forbids striking any Jew, includes [the prohibition of striking] one's father.
The Mechilta3 says, "The verse, 'Whoever strikes his father or mother,' tells us the punishment. What is the source of the actual prohibition? That comes from the verse4 [which speaks of lashing a transgressor], 'Do not go beyond the limit and give him forty lashes.' This verse teaches us a kal v'chomer:5 If even one who it is a mitzvah to strike, it is prohibited to strike him [beyond the limit], one who it is a mitzvah not to strike, certainly it is prohibited to strike."
One who transgresses this prohibition by intentionally striking his father or mother and causes bleeding, is punished by chenek [strangulation].
The details of this mitzvah are explained in the end of tractate Sanhedrin.6
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giftedmom
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Today at 12:43 am
| amother Aubergine wrote: | | Her response to me is concerning. Im quite surprised that you are ok with potching as you understand the world of CPTSD. |
Concerning how? I don’t potch as a discipline method. I don’t do much discipline/punishment in general. I used to, until I learned about CPTSD. But as a traumatized person I will not be mistreated or hurt by anyone, even my own children.
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amother
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Today at 12:45 am
| amother Seashell wrote: | Copied from chabad website:
Hitting a Parent
Negative Commandment 319
By Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon ("Maimonides"); translated by Berel Bell
From the Sichos in English Collection
« Previous
Negative Commandment 318
Next »
Negative Commandment 320
The 319th prohibition is that we are forbidden from striking [either of] our parents.
For this prohibition, too, there is no specific verse written in the Torah. Only the punishment is written,1 "Whoever strikes one's father or mother shall be put to death." The derivation of the actual prohibition against striking his father is similar to that of cursing one's father, as we explained.2 In this case, prohibition 300, which forbids striking any Jew, includes [the prohibition of striking] one's father.
The Mechilta3 says, "The verse, 'Whoever strikes his father or mother,' tells us the punishment. What is the source of the actual prohibition? That comes from the verse4 [which speaks of lashing a transgressor], 'Do not go beyond the limit and give him forty lashes.' This verse teaches us a kal v'chomer:5 If even one who it is a mitzvah to strike, it is prohibited to strike him [beyond the limit], one who it is a mitzvah not to strike, certainly it is prohibited to strike."
One who transgresses this prohibition by intentionally striking his father or mother and causes bleeding, is punished by chenek [strangulation].
The details of this mitzvah are explained in the end of tractate Sanhedrin.6 |
This does NOT apply to young children.
This applies to adult children.
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amother
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Today at 12:52 am
| amother Teal wrote: | This does NOT apply to young children.
This applies to adult children. |
I agree. I just posted it so we are all clear about what another giraffe was talking about.
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amother
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Today at 1:15 am
| amother OP wrote: | Okay, I'm not catching up, but here's my update:
Here's what followed.
The next morning as I was helping dd get ready for school I told her I was really sorry that I hurt her and once again told her how much I love her. And then I demanded an apology from her. At first she denied having done anything wrong, so we spoke about it and I asked her if she thinks pinching and lifting my skirt is okay. She smiled and said "I'm sorry." Then I spoke to her a little about waiting patiently.
I made an extra effort to hurry home from work so I can get dinner done before the kids got home so they have me fully present. I also prepared a plate of ready cut up apples on the table. When she walked through the door and noticed the plate she asked me "You prepared this special for me?" She was beaming! (She didn't even end up eating it, but it didn't even matter.)
I also tried to catch her in moments where she waited patiently and praised her.
.
I'm trying my best to move forward and not think much of the incident as I tend to get stuck in my guilt.
I grew up being hit a LOT. It did much damage to me. I remember promising myself that when I'll be a parent I will never ever hit. That didn't happen. I hit plenty and some. It was awful, because I knew the repercussions they had, but my thoughts and wishes were simply not in sync with my impulses. I deeply struggled at controlling my impulses and when I did hit my guilt was so strong, I'd often fall into a depression because of it. I knew I was messing up my kids but I simply didn't know how to help myself. It was living hell.
Fast forward a few years and I learned what meds and therapy are. I did a lot of inner work. Worked through lots of trauma. I've come an extremely long way. It's probably been over 2 years since I last hit a child. I'm proud of who I've become and try not to get sucked in by the mistakes I make.
I appreciate everyone's support and I did get to read many responses. I sincerely appreciate all of you who took the time to reply. |
Good for you! and thanks for sharing your update.
You sounds like an amazing mom
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#BestBubby
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Today at 7:48 am
Thank you for the update, OP.
I think it was great that you explained to your DD that what she did was wrong and got her to apologize.
You also told her that even if she hits you again you will not potch. You did not warn that there will be any punishment.
Time will tell if DD will hit you again.
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amother
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Today at 8:11 am
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This is random, but kudos to you for having apples as the default snack, and not the superprocessed junk that is slowly destroying us.
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amother
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Today at 8:44 am
When a child hits a child, we call it aggression.
When a child hits an adult, we call it hostility.
When an adult hits an adult, we call it assault.
When an adult hits a child, we call it discipline.”
— Haim Ginott, Child Psychologist and Psychotherapist
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amother
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Today at 8:55 am
Best Bubby there is so much research that indicates that hitting doesn’t change the original behavior and just leads to trauma
Do your research,
The following excerpt is taken from Developmental Science
Physical punishment is one of the most intensely studied aspects of parenting. Hundreds of studies over five decades have concluded that it’s harmful to children in just about every measurable way. Children’s behavior, emotions, intellectual functioning, and physical health all suffer. Gershoff’s most recent 2016 meta-analysis with Andrew Grogan-Kaylor, professor of social work at the University of Michigan, analyzed 75 studies involving 161,000 children. Three important conclusions were drawn:
First, consistent with earlier research, the analysis found no evidence that physical punishment changed the original, unwanted behavior.
Second, there were 13 significant harmful effects of the practice:
Poorer moral reasoning
Increased childhood aggression
Increased antisocial behavior
Increased externalizing behavior problems (disruptive or harmful behavior directed at other people or things)
Increased internalizing behavior problems (symptoms of anxiety or depression)
Child mental health problems
Impaired parent-child relationship
Impaired cognitive ability and impaired academic achievement
Lower self-esteem
More likely to be a victim of physical abuse
Antisocial behavior in adulthood
Mental health problems in adulthood
Alcohol or substance abuse problems in adulthood
Support for physical punishment in adulthood
Third, these outcomes were similar to effects of childhood trauma. A landmark set of studies in the 1990s documented that exposure to certain kinds of childhood experiences—including physical and emotional abuse or neglect, s-xual abuse, domestic violence, family mental illness, incarceration, and substance abuse—causes great harm lasting into adulthood. And the more adverse experiences a child has, the greater the impact. The effects include increased risk for serious physical diseases like cancer, diabetes, heart disease and COPD as well as early death, mental illness, suicidality, lower educational and professional attainment, and even reduced income. As a result of these findings, a ten-question screening tool known as the Adverse Childhood Experience (ACE) Checklist is now widely used to identify risk for mental and physical illnesses due to ACEs, in the hope of providing early intervention and treatment.
Gershoff and Grogan-Kaylor analyzed a subset of seven studies from their meta-analysis that compared the use of physical punishment to physical abuse and found that the impact was indistinguishable. Both physical punishment and physical abuse led to more antisocial behavior and mental health problems in childhood as well as increased mental health problems in adulthood. In a separate study, Gershoff and colleagues reanalyzed a subset of the original ACEs data and also found that physical punishment was associated with the same mental health problems in adulthood as physical and emotional abuse. In addition, it created an even greater likelihood of suicide attempts and substance abuse than physical and emotional abuse alone created.
Brain imaging studies also show a link between physical punishment and trauma. In a 2021 study, researchers showed 147 12-year-olds pictures of fearful and neutral faces while their brain activity was imaged in a functional MRI (fMRI) machine. Compared to children who were never physically punished, children who were physically punished had greater activity throughout the brain when viewing fearful faces. They also had more activity in regions of the brain related to threat appraisal, emotion regulation, and evaluating the mental state of others. Importantly, the pattern of their brain activity was the same as children who had been physically abused. When children have harmful interpersonal experiences, they become hypervigilant to the emotional expressions of others, because fearful or angry adult faces can be a cue that something bad is likely to follow. This study suggests that children who are physically punished are running the same brain circuitry as children who have been abused.
Data like this shows that the attempt to distinguish between physical punishment and physical abuse is no longer legitimate. What we now know is that inside the child, the response is the same. According to Gershoff, “Research like this may help parents understand that when they’re hitting their children, they’re causing fundamental damage to the child’s brain—not because they’re hitting them in the head. They’re hitting them in other places on their body, and it’s causing a massive stress reaction every time. And it gets worse every time it happens. That stress ramps up and ramps up and causes physical and mental health problems.” As a result, Gershoff and colleagues, and many other scientists, call for physical punishment to be identified and screened for as an additional ACE.
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amother
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Today at 9:05 am
| #BestBubby wrote: | Thank you for the update, OP.
I think it was great that you explained to your DD that what she did was wrong and got her to apologize.
You also told her that even if she hits you again you will not potch. You did not warn that there will be any punishment.
Time will tell if DD will hit you again. |
Enough, this is borderline bullying.
If you can't give a compliment with a full heart & without criticism, just stay quiet.
OP did well, she did the right thing. It takes a big person to do that.
Did you read OP's entire post & saw where she was coming from & where she's up to now? It takes a strong person to achieve what OP did.
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#BestBubby
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Today at 9:24 am
| amother Aubergine wrote: | Best Bubby there is so much research that indicates that hitting doesn’t change the original behavior and just leads to trauma
Do your research,
The following excerpt is taken from Developmental Science
Physical punishment is one of the most intensely studied aspects of parenting. Hundreds of studies over five decades have concluded that it’s harmful to children in just about every measurable way. Children’s behavior, emotions, intellectual functioning, and physical health all suffer. Gershoff’s most recent 2016 meta-analysis with Andrew Grogan-Kaylor, professor of social work at the University of Michigan, analyzed 75 studies involving 161,000 children. Three important conclusions were drawn:
First, consistent with earlier research, the analysis found no evidence that physical punishment changed the original, unwanted behavior.
Second, there were 13 significant harmful effects of the practice:
Poorer moral reasoning
Increased childhood aggression
Increased antisocial behavior
Increased externalizing behavior problems (disruptive or harmful behavior directed at other people or things)
Increased internalizing behavior problems (symptoms of anxiety or depression)
Child mental health problems
Impaired parent-child relationship
Impaired cognitive ability and impaired academic achievement
Lower self-esteem
More likely to be a victim of physical abuse
Antisocial behavior in adulthood
Mental health problems in adulthood
Alcohol or substance abuse problems in adulthood
Support for physical punishment in adulthood
Third, these outcomes were similar to effects of childhood trauma. A landmark set of studies in the 1990s documented that exposure to certain kinds of childhood experiences—including physical and emotional abuse or neglect, s-xual abuse, domestic violence, family mental illness, incarceration, and substance abuse—causes great harm lasting into adulthood. And the more adverse experiences a child has, the greater the impact. The effects include increased risk for serious physical diseases like cancer, diabetes, heart disease and COPD as well as early death, mental illness, suicidality, lower educational and professional attainment, and even reduced income. As a result of these findings, a ten-question screening tool known as the Adverse Childhood Experience (ACE) Checklist is now widely used to identify risk for mental and physical illnesses due to ACEs, in the hope of providing early intervention and treatment.
Gershoff and Grogan-Kaylor analyzed a subset of seven studies from their meta-analysis that compared the use of physical punishment to physical abuse and found that the impact was indistinguishable. Both physical punishment and physical abuse led to more antisocial behavior and mental health problems in childhood as well as increased mental health problems in adulthood. In a separate study, Gershoff and colleagues reanalyzed a subset of the original ACEs data and also found that physical punishment was associated with the same mental health problems in adulthood as physical and emotional abuse. In addition, it created an even greater likelihood of suicide attempts and substance abuse than physical and emotional abuse alone created.
Brain imaging studies also show a link between physical punishment and trauma. In a 2021 study, researchers showed 147 12-year-olds pictures of fearful and neutral faces while their brain activity was imaged in a functional MRI (fMRI) machine. Compared to children who were never physically punished, children who were physically punished had greater activity throughout the brain when viewing fearful faces. They also had more activity in regions of the brain related to threat appraisal, emotion regulation, and evaluating the mental state of others. Importantly, the pattern of their brain activity was the same as children who had been physically abused. When children have harmful interpersonal experiences, they become hypervigilant to the emotional expressions of others, because fearful or angry adult faces can be a cue that something bad is likely to follow. This study suggests that children who are physically punished are running the same brain circuitry as children who have been abused.
Data like this shows that the attempt to distinguish between physical punishment and physical abuse is no longer legitimate. What we now know is that inside the child, the response is the same. According to Gershoff, “Research like this may help parents understand that when they’re hitting their children, they’re causing fundamental damage to the child’s brain—not because they’re hitting them in the head. They’re hitting them in other places on their body, and it’s causing a massive stress reaction every time. And it gets worse every time it happens. That stress ramps up and ramps up and causes physical and mental health problems.” As a result, Gershoff and colleagues, and many other scientists, call for physical punishment to be identified and screened for as an additional ACE. |
These studies are fraudulent.
They mix parents who give an occasional smack with severe abuse
Of course abuse has negative outcomes but that doesn't mean a rare potch is harmful.
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#BestBubby
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Today at 9:27 am
| amother Teal wrote: | Enough, this is borderline bullying.
If you can't give a compliment with a full heart & without criticism, just stay quiet.
OP did well, she did the right thing. It takes a big person to do that.
Did you read OP's entire post & saw where she was coming from & where she's up to now? It takes a strong person to achieve what OP did. |
I am not the bully here.
All the super compassionates who write vicious posts should look in the 🪞
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amother
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Today at 9:32 am
| #BestBubby wrote: | I am not the bully here.
All the super compassionates who write vicious posts should look in the 🪞 |
That post is definitely considered bullying.
OP posted her journey, posted the details, where she's coming from, where she's up to now, the amazing work she's done for herself. And you respond with criticism.
That is bullying.
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amother
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Today at 9:33 am
| #BestBubby wrote: | These studies are fraudulent.
They mix parents who give an occasional smack with severe abuse
Of course abuse has negative outcomes but that doesn't mean a rare potch is harmful. |
How can you just discredit all the research in the topic? Of course a beating with a belt will be worse than a once in a while spanking but the premise is the same.
It’s damaging and depending on the severity and frequency of the hitting will probably depend on the severity of the trauma that the child experienced.
But either way we do understand from the research that it isn’t about teaching a child and is about trauma and control.
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#BestBubby
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Today at 9:42 am
The studies do not prove that an occasional smack caused ANY negative outcome.
It wasn't 100% of the children who had negative outcomes but a high percentage.
Were those negatively effected all from children who suffered real abuse?
The study doesn't say.
That is why it is fraudulent to say these studies prove an occasional smack caused any negative outcomes.
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amother
Honeysuckle
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Today at 9:49 am
| amother Denim wrote: | Have you ever been s3xually abused/molested. That would make sense for a big reaction.
BTW my 8 year old is just like your daughter. It's really draining if they behave like this every day. |
What shaychus s-xual abuse??!?
She is a normal person who reacted in a way a lot of women would react when being in such a situation. You could tell her remorse, and she apologized and deeply regrets it. Daven for siyata dishmaya because it’s very hard not to lose yourself. Only Hashem help us gain strength and self control. Tzar yigdal banim. It’s very hard. We are champions every time we react the right way!
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amother
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Today at 9:56 am
As a child that got potched all the time, I don't think that never potching is the solution. If you teach them from early on that certain behaviors deserve a potch (aggressive, inappropriate, or dangerous) when they get older - you talk to them.
I know a popular mechanech (who has a happy large family) said when kids are young, it's much easier to teach them and guide them. Some ppl think a 3-4 yr old not listening is cute and ignore it, but then is the time to discipline.
Parents today are afraid to discipline their kids, and it gets harder later on.
How you give that occasional potch also matters. Give pre notice, stand your ground, and do it calmly
Everything in life needs a balance. Always hitting is no good. Never giving a potch is also not good (I know ppl that don't potch, but yell. I think that's worse) my mother used to potch me when I was a grown girl -- which is never ok.
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amother
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Today at 10:11 am
| #BestBubby wrote: | I am not the bully here.
All the super compassionates who write vicious posts should look in the 🪞 |
BestBubby, nobody is trying to hurt you. If any of my posts caused you to feel hurt, I’m very sorry.
I’m concerned that kids will get hurt from what you’re advising and we are all trying to stop that.
Our goal is that imamother in 20 years from now hopefully won’t have anymore posts written by kids who we’re potched and hurt from it.
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amother
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Today at 10:14 am
| amother Aubergine wrote: | | Her response to me is concerning. Im quite surprised that you are ok with potching as you understand the world of CPTSD. |
She was saying what her child said. It was a pretty balanced response.
Parents are not friends or siblings. True.
Calmly talk to the child. Good idea.
Give one potch. I'm ok with that, but just because her child said it, doesn't mean that's her discipline methods. Children are quicker to have more extreme responses or ideas than adults, even if it's different than how their parents would respond.
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amother
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Today at 10:16 am
| amother Aubergine wrote: | Don’t minimize the damage of potching.
You sound very chilled about potching.
There are lots of mechanchim and rabbanim that speak out against potching. I’m not sure why you are trivializing something so damaging. |
I've never spoke to any mechanech or rav who has spoken out against a normal potch. There is none that would say you are never allowed to hit your child. You do not have to hit your child. You MUST not hit your children. But no one will say you NEVER may.
I'm sure there is someone out there, but that does not mean it is a mainstream opinion in anyway or by any stretch.
People are have this "never" approach to anything in life and usually not very easy individuals to deal with. They are generally tense and uptight and that alone is worse than an occasional smack, if you choose that.
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