Do I owe her money?

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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

Do I owe her money?

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URHL ↓

Tue, Dec 31 2024, 10:47 am

I probably need to ask a Rav this question, but am wondering if anyone here has any insight.

I bought a gift card to a certain store a while back while they were having a sale. I think it was 20% off gift cards. Recently, I needed to make a purchase from this store and a friend of mine was going there. I asked her if she could buy me the item I needed and I would send her the gift card code. She said yes. The item I bought was worth about 1/6 of the amount I had on the card.
She later told me that she ended up using the whole gift card and would pay me back cash for the entire amount which she did.
My question is, since I didn't pay full price for the gift card do I need to give her back that 20% that I didn't pay? Or because, had I used the card, it would have been worth the full amount, that is now what she owes me?
Had she asked me before I probably would have told her not to use it because of this question, but what's done is done.

Anyone been in such a situation before?

Tzutzie ↓

Tue, Dec 31 2024, 10:49 am

AFAIK, it's not about how much you paid but how much it's worth/she used.
With your logic, had you gotten this as a gift, did she not need to pay you back at all?

Living Princess ↓

Tue, Dec 31 2024, 10:49 am

I'm not a Rav but I'd be sure you need to give her the money or it's Ribbis.

↑ URHL ↓

Tue, Dec 31 2024, 10:50 am

Tzutzie wrote:

AFAIK, it's not about how much you paid but how much it's worth/she used.
With your logic, had you gotten this as a gift, did she not need to pay you back at all?

Good point!

↑ Living Princess

Tue, Dec 31 2024, 10:53 am

Tzutzie wrote:

AFAIK, it's not about how much you paid but how much it's worth/she used.
With your logic, had you gotten this as a gift, did she not need to pay you back at all?

Sorry but this isn't correct. The Halacha is about how much you paid for it. Being that OP didn't receive it as a gift there is no relevance to your logic.
But if course I'm not a Rav

Molly Weasley ↓

Tue, Dec 31 2024, 10:54 am

No. You don't owe her anything.

The fact that you got it's for less is irrelevant to her.

I'm more bothered at the fact that she used your card without permission.

↑ URHL ↓

Tue, Dec 31 2024, 10:55 am

Living Princess wrote:

Sorry but this isn't correct. The Halacha is about how much you paid for it. Being that OP didn't receive it as a gift there is no relevance to your logic.

Does the fact that I was not asked if she could use the card make a difference? That for me it would have been worth the full amount AND for her it was worth the full amount?

↑ URHL ↓

Tue, Dec 31 2024, 10:57 am

Molly Weasley wrote:

No. You don't owe her anything.

The fact that you got it's for less is irrelevant to her.

I'm more bothered at the fact that she used your card without permission.

It bothered me too at first... but deep down I really don't care...
Now just wondering where to go from here

Raizle ↓

Tue, Dec 31 2024, 11:06 am

Living Princess wrote:

I'm not a Rav but I'd be sure you need to give her the money or it's Ribbis.

How is it ribbis? She used something worth a certain value and replaced that same value. She didn't borrow money from her.

It's more comparable to selling an item and making a profit
OP bought something less then it's value but the item is still worth the full amount.

She also never agreed to loaning it to her friend her friend just used it so she has to replace it's value

↑ Raizle ↓

Tue, Dec 31 2024, 11:09 am

Living Princess wrote:

Sorry but this isn't correct. The Halacha is about how much you paid for it. Being that OP didn't receive it as a gift there is no relevance to your logic.
But if course I'm not a Rav

not a rov either but afaik the halocho is to do with loaning and taking interest on said loan.
This is more of a situation where someone used an item of certain value without permission and needs to replace the value regardless what the owner paid for it.

If I buy a car at a steal. Let's say 2 thirds of it's price and you crash it, you still have to replace the value of my car

↑ Raizle ↓

Tue, Dec 31 2024, 11:12 am

Also according to what lively princess is suggesting, store owners have to sell us everything at cost price otherwise their profit is considered ribbis

Last edited by Raizle on Tue, Dec 31 2024, 11:22 am; edited 2 times in total

↑ Molly Weasley

Tue, Dec 31 2024, 11:12 am

URHL wrote:

It bothered me too at first... but deep down I really don't care...
Now just wondering where to go from here

Lively princess has it wrong. But I'll reframe to hopefully explain it better

I'm sorry for framing it this way, but this is what it is. Your friend stole a gift card worth $100 from you. She has to return that value.

If it makes you feel better, have her buy you a gift card for that amount. How much she pays for it is irrelevant.

↑ Raizle

Tue, Dec 31 2024, 11:20 am

Molly Weasley wrote:

Or we could just say she "used" something worth 100.
The gift card was a form of currency in a way so she just exchanged one currency for another. Yes she should have asked first but I think it's extreme to call it theft.

Even if it were a loan like Lively princess is thinking, it doesn't matter how much she paid for the gift card because that was a transaction between her and the store, not her and her friend. If she loaned it then she loaned the value of the card.

I don't even think it's a shaila

singleagain

Tue, Dec 31 2024, 11:30 am

URHL wrote:

I have a gift card worth 120 dollars.

Please buy me a 20 dollar item

Oops I used the remaining 100 dollars on my purchases. Here's 100 dollars back.

If you now gave her 20 back bc you only paid 80... You're losing 20 dollars.

It doesn't matter what you paid. When you got it, it was worth 120. If she used 100 of it she owes that back which she paid.

Note. I am not a halachic authority. But as Raizel said I don't even think it is a shaila

↑ Tzutzie

Tue, Dec 31 2024, 11:37 am

Living Princess wrote:

Sorry but this isn't correct. The Halacha is about how much you paid for it. Being that OP didn't receive it as a gift there is no relevance to your logic.
But if course I'm not a Rav

No. How much she took. It doesn't matter how much she paid for it but how much money it actually is. This isn't an item that can fluctuate in value over time/use and other variables. Ot's clear cut currency.

↑ URHL

Tue, Dec 31 2024, 12:04 pm

Thanks all!

mrs me

Tue, Dec 31 2024, 12:56 pm

I didn’t read the whole thread. If the card was $50, and your purchase was $10, she owes you $40. It’s as simple as that. She used the balance of the card.

snooper86

Tue, Dec 31 2024, 1:52 pm

singleagain wrote:

I agree this is what makes sense logically, and I also agree it’s not even a question I’d ask anyone.

shoshanim999

Tue, Dec 31 2024, 2:01 pm

Living Princess wrote:

Sorry but this isn't correct. The Halacha is about how much you paid for it. Being that OP didn't receive it as a gift there is no relevance to your logic.
But if course I'm not a Rav

Someone gives you a $100 gift card.

You give it to your friend and say she can use $20.

Instead she uses the entire $100.

According to your logic since you didn't pay for the gift card (you received it as a gift) your friend wouldn't be responsible for using the other $80 that she wasn't allowed to use.

Is this what you're saying?

lamplighter

Tue, Dec 31 2024, 2:19 pm

She needs to pay the value that she used. Otherwise you would have that value to use for yourself.

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