DS's friend went too far--not sure how to handle this

amother

Brown ↓

Fri, Aug 30 2024, 2:12 am

What worries me is that if DS said he felt good that this boy needed/wanted him what's stopping him from pursuing that good feeling?

And also if they 'broke up' already with the amicable understanding that it needs to happen why does DS need to meet him to discuss hurt feelings over a breakup that they both agreed should happen?

And why is it DS fault that he had to block his number due to his harassment?

I'm afraid this boy shouldn't keep obsessing over your DS.

I think DS needs to see a therapist. This is way too big and heavy for you and him to handle alone.

Raizle

Fri, Aug 30 2024, 2:13 am

amother OP wrote:

I see now it was after 1 a.m. when they showed up here. That's pretty crazy in and of itself.

Its pretty clear that the mum as well as the boy do not understand boundaries. In addition to everything else showing up at that hour is completely inappropriate and a clear crossing of boundaries.

Now please don't take offence but it works both ways. Soon as they showed up at 1.am and you allowed it at that hour means you perhaps also need to learn about boundaries and establishing them.
That's just a clear no no. You want to talk? contact us at a normal hour, ask permission to come over and we will see. But no, just showing up at crazy hours is off the wall and shouldn't be tolerated.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Aug 30 2024, 2:21 am

amother Brown wrote:

Fact of the matter is, DS has not been pursuing that good feeling. He has been steadfast in his rejection of his calls with no exception. He knows they need to have a complete disconnect. DS is very, very smart and does what needs to be done. He's obviously human, but I'm impressed with how strong he's been until now.

I just called his Ram back and told him what happened last night, and he told me who to speak to. Someone very well known who deals specifically with struggling bochurim. He's a well-known lecturer and I once attended a series of his, so I know who it is and feel it's a great choice. He gave me his number and I'll be calling him right away. He'll tell me if DS needs to see someone and who it should be, and he'll also tell me what our obligation is regarding letting the other yeshiva know about this boy's issues.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Aug 30 2024, 2:23 am

Raizle wrote:

You're right. I honestly had no idea what time it was when they called. Bein hazmanim is chaotic here and there's no day or night. I was shocked to see it was after 2 a.m. when they finished speaking. In my head it was closer to 11 p.m.

amother

Dandelion

Fri, Aug 30 2024, 2:32 am

Op good morning
כל הכבוד for handling it
Really an ugly and sticky situation and I hope it never happens again. The only way to ensure that is to work on boundaries. A ram is great. a few sessions with a therapist could also be helpful because there for sure may be some residual issues. As you can tell, the vast majority of us on imamother believe it’s important for next time to have a firm foot down when it comes to protecting ourselves and our children.
Wishing you hatzlacha and to move past this for good.

DrMom

Fri, Aug 30 2024, 2:47 am

amother OP wrote:

That's great, but is the yeshiva doing anything about the guy who is stalking your son?

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Aug 30 2024, 2:56 am

DrMom wrote:

That's great, but is the yeshiva doing anything about the guy who is stalking your son?

The boy is no longer in the yeshiva and nobody in the yeshiva knows that it's still going on. The Ram we're speaking to isn't there anymore and he doesn't know which boy it is who's stalking him.

amother

Maple

Fri, Aug 30 2024, 3:43 am

I had the same situation with my son a few years ago. Only difference was, my son complained to the Yeshiva and they enforced a friendship ban on the two boys completely. I only found out about it when the friend reached out to me to give my son a message bec he wasn't able to contact him directly. I never heard from his mother.
I sent my son for a few sessions with Gavriel Fagin who came highly recommended but after 2 or 3 times my son refused to go back, saying it was a waste of time. The therapist told me it was fine, he would be fine and I can let him stop.
Today my son is BH happily married with kids and sporadically in contact with the friend who unfortunately is divorced and depressed, doesn't leave his house etc. Whenever I think about it, I wish the yeshiva would have contacted both sets of parents and let us deal with the issue on our own while offering support. I don't think the boy got any help.
If I were you I would let it lie for now and check in with him once in a while to see if he's still in contact with the other boy. If he continues to have contact you should do whatever you can to break it off completely.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Aug 30 2024, 4:09 am

amother Maple wrote:

Thanks for sharing this. DS is BH overall happy and keeping busy. He learns on the phone with chavrusas every day, goes out with friends, etc. so I feel like there's no major emergency, though we do need to keep a close eye on things. I am talking to experts (the expert who was recommended gave me a phone number of someone he feels is better qualified to handle it) and keeping open communication with DS and davening to make wise decisions.

amother

Rainbow

Fri, Aug 30 2024, 4:18 am

I think you did great - all things considered, being put on the spot. I would have prefered that you refuse to allow them to meet, but can totally understand the pressure of having them just show up.

That being said - the mother was just as inappropriate as the son, by showing up with him and putting you all on the spot. I would not trust her judgement and if there is any popping into your life again I would be very clear that you will contact the police.

Do not fall for her games - this is where this guy learnt that crossing boundaries is ok.

amother

Emerald ↓

Fri, Aug 30 2024, 5:07 am

amother OP wrote:

They finally left. I had a long talk with DS afterwards. Apparently the boy was very angry at DS for blocking his calls, and his mother also said it's hurtful to do that. DS explained that he had no choice. He told me that when they left yeshiva at the end of the zman, they talked openly about how they're cutting ties and not speaking to each other again, and this boy seemed to accept that at the time. Apparently, he was too stuck to move on.

When I went out as they were ending things, the boy asked me if I'm angry at him. I asked him for what, not knowing if DS told him that he had told me about the physical part. He said "for what happened." I said "No, I'm not angry, I'm just concerned about my son. And I feel bad for you too because this isn't healthy for either one of you." He asked me if I think they need to cut off ties. I said absolutely. He said completely? I said yes. He said forever? I said yes. DS said his mother told him the same thing right before I came out.

I guess time will tell whether or not the conversation accomplished anything.

You handled this well. If it continues please report this to the police. Since his mother is so concerned about "hurt feelings", you can warn her that if her son contacts yours again you will be reporting him to the police. And then follow through, it should not be an empty threat.

amother

↑ Emerald

Fri, Aug 30 2024, 5:12 am

amother OP wrote:

His mother thought talking it out would help her kid move on. He's clearly unwell. I saw it on his face immediately when I went out. She knows him better than I do, and she apparently felt this was what he needed to move on.

If it were my son (who has his issues) then I would want you to turn him away. Even if I came with (which I might do for your safety and your son's). Tell him outright that he has harassed your son and you will not allow him to speak to us. Tell us/him that if we do not leave immediately you will call the police. I would back off your property and wait for my son to follow. And if he didn't follow I would expect you to follow through and call the police.
Because my son needs to learn boundaries, respect of others, to keep his hands to himself.
Don't know what your DS's friend has. Mine has HFASD and DOES NOT KNOW BOUNDARIES. DOES NOT READ SOCIAL CUES. And lots lots more. (Don't think he's gay though lol. And your DS's friend sure sounds gay.)
And if it were your daughter instead of your son I'd do the same thing but oh man would I be judging you for not being firmer about your daughter's safety. Because I certainly can't control what a teen/ young adult son can do but you sure have an obligation to protect your daughter from creeps.

Also the friend's mother has an obligation to HER kid. But you have an obligation to yours. And if she can't respect that then she is a big part of the problem, not just her son.

ora_43 ↓

Fri, Aug 30 2024, 5:17 am

Sorry OP but I really don't get why you still say you trust this other kid's mom.

She showed up unexpectedly at your house in the middle of the night to ambush your son, who she knew did not want to talk to her son, and to berate him for not giving in to her son's WILDLY inappropriate behavior.

Your son is being stalked by her son, and she's on the stalker's side. I'm sure she has all kinds of pitiable reasons for it but that doesn't change the fact that you cannot trust her AT ALL. Not even a tiny iota. What she did was incredibly inappropriate and shows a fundamental misunderstanding on her part about how serious her son's actions are (even not knowing about the s-xual assault aspect, she should have known that stalking is bad), or about whose job it is to deal with her son's feelings (his, not his stalking victim's).

I really hope it ends here. But please make it clear to your son that she was wrong, and that he owes this other guy nothing. The other guy's hurt feelings are not his responsibility at all. This is really fundamental stuff. Please do not let her toxic messages be the last word on how to deal with abuse because she is way off.

I'd also talk with him now about how to deal with any future contact. If they show up again - I hope they won't, but if it happens - you don't want to find yourself just kinda falling into another spontaneous 1am meeting. You don't want to put your son into a position where if he's uncomfortable, he has to say so in front of his mentally ill friend and his friend's clearly distraught mother if he wants your support.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Fri, Aug 30 2024, 5:23 am

I'm also a little concerned at how you seem to think the ex-friend's mental age, disability, whatever, makes this less serious.

Stalking by a mentally ill person is still stalking. Assault by someone who acts 12 is still assault. Assault by a friend is still assault. This isn't a situation where a "real" stalker a stranger who's fully mentally competent and mature, and what you're dealing with is a milder version.

amother

Gladiolus

Fri, Aug 30 2024, 5:27 am

Stalking by a mentally ill person can be even more dangerous, you don't chas v'shalom want him to have some kind of episode and hurt your son beyond repair. What's done is done, but know that you have taught your son to make himself a shmatteh for someone else's needs, the mother clearly has no boundaries either and maybe even a diagnosis of her own. No one should be treating her son with compassion at the expense of others. Drawing it out is a terrible idea. The whole thing is the epitome of enabling abusive behaviors and you have taught your son that it's ok to be abused and even apologize when you did nothing wrong. The fact that the mother thinks it's hurtful that he didn't answer his calls makes me worry the most. She obviously doesn't understand it would have been very wrong from him to answer calls from his stalker!

↑ ora_43

Fri, Aug 30 2024, 6:14 am

To be clear OP I do think your behavior until now is very understandable, even if mistakes were made.

I just think it's very important to be clear going forward about how bad this kid's behavior is, and how off base his mother is.

And mostly, to make it clear to your son that
(1) while it's wonderful to befriend people who need a friend, sometimes people have problems no friend can fix. none of what happened is on him.
(2) if he needs to break up a relationship, that is 100% an OK thing to do, even if it upsets the other person. He owes the other person kindness in the sense of not being cruel when he ends things, but he does not owe them 'closure' and he does not owe them any more of his time.
(3) it's natural to have mixed feelings when someone you like does things you're not comfortable with. in a healthy relationship the other person will respect any boundaries you set. an unhealthy relationship isn't one that's 100% bad all the time, it's one where reasonable boundaries (eg no unwanted touch) get crossed - even if the other 98% of the time everything is good.

And to have a safety plan going forward. Not just in case this kid comes back to your house, but also, what can/should your son do if he keeps calling, what should your son do if the kid "runs into" him at yeshiva or in public somewhere, or if he tries to contact him via mutual friends.

notshanarishona

Fri, Aug 30 2024, 8:16 am

A healthy situation would have been if the mom called you and said my son is really broken up over stopping this relationship and feels like he needs a conclusion , can we come over or can they talk on the phone. I wouldn’t leave them alone if you know they have been inappropriate or the other boy isn’t respecting boundaries. Obviously this mom doesn’t know normal boundaries and I wouldn’t trust her after this

amother

Milk

Fri, Aug 30 2024, 8:36 am

I’m chiming that while I’ve never been in this situation with a child, I was with myself.

I put a stop to a very toxic relationship and definitely fell back in “to discuss” the ending and how I’m causing her pain.

Those conversations only hurt me and looking back, I wish I had the strength to ignore her and continue to be strong to my resolve that I wouldn’t talk to her.

Op, you sound like a very grounded mother with an awesome relationship with your son. I think that it would be smart to make an absolute no- contact policy from now on. It’s unfortunate that the friend is hurting, but the true way for him to resolve that is to get proper help. Your son cannot help it by having discussions with him.

Hatzlacha!

↑ sequoia ↓

Fri, Aug 30 2024, 9:53 am

ora_43 wrote:

This. “Immature” does not equal “license to stalk and harass others”.