New draft and frum families making aliyah

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 9:39 am

imaima wrote:

Can you please specify which values are challenged in the army. Someone has mentioned all the accommodations there are there. Are there girls in the unit? I would assume that no but maybe I am wrong.

I'm not qualified to give an answer since I am not educated in the details.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 9:53 am

essie14 wrote:

All the boys who are learning Torah from age 13-18 are worthless to you?????
Every man between 21-120????
Why is their learning not enough?
Why can't boys from the age of 18-21 learn and also serve their country for less than 3 years and then go back to full time learning??
There would still be hundreds of thousands of chareidim learning Torah.

I suggest you please check the statistics of men aged 21 who finish the army and still are on the same level of religiousness. I'm no expert but I've been told more than 50% go OTD.
There even is an acronym for it. דתל"ש.
If chareidim were to follow the steps of DL there wouldn't be neither an IDF nor an Israel for that matter.
If you lay your trust on IDF and Shabak etc you are welcome. We have only begun to see the cracks.
I put my trust in HaShem.

↑ someone ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 9:56 am

amother Latte wrote:

Please tell us which values the chilonim and dati leumi changed since Oct 7. How has their lifestyles adjusted to suit the new set of values?

I definitely can't speak for all dati leumi people, and certainly not for chilonim. But I can say for myself that I don't think my value system has changed, because we have a derech and a mesoret and a system of ideals that we believe is how Hashem wants us to live. That hasn't changed. But in that framework, post Simchat Torah I have been doing a lot of thinking about my avodat Hashem, about my kesher to other Jews, about my kesher to Eretz Yisrael. In other words, not changing the values, but reevaluating whether I am living those values to the fullest.
In the same way, I am not suggesting that chareidim change their values, but that they ask themselves whether serving in the IDF in a way that is appropriate for a Torah life could be part of those values. We are in great times, Hashem is calling all of us to grow in our avodat Hashem and not stay static, and that includes opening our minds to the concept that things that we thought were not part of our avodat Hashem actually are.

↑ someone ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 9:59 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

What?? Where did whoever tell you this get those statistics from? Maybe its true regarding the "chareidim" who join the army, because a lot of them are already on the way out. But it's definitely not true about the DL community.
And דתל"ש doesn't have anything to do with the army. It means someone who used to be frum and stopped - דתי לשעבר.
It sounds like you are very adamant here about something that you really don't know about... That's what I keep trying to say, the time has come to put aside the rhetoric and soundbites and examine the issue properly.
And of course we place our trust in Hashem and in Him alone. He has given us a mitzvah to fight to protect ourselves and the tools to do so (even if they are still not perfect).

amother

Yarrow ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 10:29 am

chareidim dont see this as a milchemes mitzvah..

if you dont understand this, then there is a complete ideological gap here that you're missing and will never come to a solution.
the point is to UNDERSTANT where the other side is coming from.

sitting here typing emotional, pain filled posts about how awful and lacking you think chareidim are and how terrible and evil their gedolim are... isnt painting some of you in the best light either.

this is a VERY nuanced issue and its NOT black and white.

but the first step is to appreciate the positions of BOTH sides and realize that ultimately we are on the same team.

amother

Plum ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 10:59 am

My chiloni family is so happy for this new incentive. My father hates chareidim and cant stand that they dont fight but take benefits. I married someone chareidi and it is very hard for me to understand why none of his brothers fight but they chill in yeshiva all day and talk smack about the army. I feel like I am living in two worlds- I did not grow up frum and grew up with all my brothers and cousins fighting, BH became frum and don't know what to think now.

amother

↑ Latte

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 11:22 am

someone wrote:

Who says chareidim aren't? Maybe their conclusion isn't what you wanted it to be.

amother

↑ DarkGray

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 11:45 am

amother Chocolate wrote:

Why would the Gedolim say to go to the army?
They’d be out of “business”.
They’re not dumb.
This is about controlling people, in order to consolidate power and money.
It’s as “simple” as that.

Wow, did you copy this from a Haaretz article? LOL

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 11:48 am

amother Plum wrote:

Did your parents marry the Jewish way with a Rabbi? If yes, was at a chareidi Rabbi or a conservative or reform Rabbi?
You have brothers? I guess they had brit mila. Again, a doctor made it or a Rabbi? Chareidi or not?
Your brothers had BM with aliya la Torah?
I'm asking because many non-religious people here, even if they hate chareidim with a passion, will actually use and need chareidim for religious needs or purposes.

amother

Foxglove

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 12:19 pm

I just read that they are starting by drafting single chareidim with driver's licenses. It's actually an interesting way to filter out who to draft. There is a hard rule in the chareidi world that any boy who gets a driver's license while still single is automatically expelled from yeshiva, so these boys are for sure not in yeshiva.

amother

↑ Plum ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 12:47 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Yes to all your questions.
Their issues are that chareidim stay in yeshiva and learn all day and dont fight. My mother said why is it ok for her sons (my brothers) to put their lives down for people who arent grateful, whereas a yeshiva boy can stay in a AC filled bais medrash chilling all day. I dont know how to answert them since they do not value torah learning. And when I did mention that one day my father said why cant they learn and fight like dati boys/men.
My brothers in law are all in kollel and dont work and receive benefits and talk badly about the army all day its hard for me. Im happy I have girls now and dont have to think about this yet

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 1:01 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

So in your views all bachurim in the yeshivot should close their Gmara and take the next bus to lishkat gius? And who would stay in the yeshiva and study Torah?
What values should I change? In your opinion, what lifestyle change should I do?
FYI: Who was involved in finding and transporting the bodies from the kibbutzim? Zaka. That's just one example.
Your hate towards lomdei HaTorah is palpable.

The select few who are actually that steeped in torah learning. But there are so many bench warmers, as you yourself said earlier, so why not go to the draft authority and see whats what?

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 1:06 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

First of all, datlash does not come from the army. Its for anyone who was frum and now is not.
Youve been told a certain statistic? That isnt going to cut it. Sorry. I find it hard to believe that half the frum population goes in from and comes out not.
Follow the steps of DL? In what way? And of course there would be an Israel. Why ever not?

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 1:07 pm

someone wrote:

You said it perfectly. Ive been doing the same, as I am sure many others are as well.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 1:10 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

What a rude post. What an extremely rude post.
You really have a chip on your shoulder BneiBrak10. And you also seemed very uninformed about a lot of basic things.
And of course they dont NEED charedim for any of the above religious things. There are so many dati leumi rabbanim out there you know.
And if you were shocked that this poster said her father hates charedim, I want you to know that I know dati people who hate charedim. Its not unheard of.

Last edited by shabbatiscoming on Thu, Jul 18 2024, 1:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Firethorn ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 1:11 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Um, there are actually dati leumi rabbis who do weddings. We had a DL mohel for our sons with a big kippah sruga. We actually have a DL shul with aliyah laTorah. Chareidim are not the only ones providing these services, you know?
This idea that chareidim are the only ones keeping all the mitzvot gets a bit tiresome with time.

Aurora ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 1:16 pm

amother Plum wrote:

I value Torah learning and have the same question as your parents.

Edit: also, if most of what one sees of Torah learning is of those who use it as an excuse to avoid being grateful to those who literally put their lives on the line for them, why should one value it?

Last edited by Aurora on Thu, Jul 18 2024, 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Buttercup ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 1:18 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

The select few who are actually that steeped in torah learning. But there are so many bench warmers, as you yourself said earlier, so why not go to the draft authority and see whats what?

TLDR the whole thread. As an outsider, with family in Israel on every level of religiosity, I think it’s like this:
Israel is a small country and it needs lots of defense capabilities. However, they don’t need everyone. Just like in USA, when there is a draft, not everyone serves. For example, in USA women are not drafted. If they want to serve they can. Religious students are not drafted. It doesn’t matter the religion. In Israel, they don’t want everyone to be in the army. Plenty of frum-chareidi-DL-yeshivish (pick your type) serve in the army. And plenty get out of it. Some legally and some not. Just like everywhere else. The army only wants a certain type and only if they’ll be helpful. And in USA, there is talk about women having to fill out a selective service card. Every male in USA has to fill out and get a SS number when he turns 18 and in case of a draft that is how the army will get people. Every male needs one until the age of 26 and every few years there is talk of females needing one too.
If every eligible male would register for the Israeli army, there would be too many people in the army. All that the army wants is to figure out who is legally not serving.
Draft dodging is nothing new. Many presidents in America were draft dodgers. I don’t think most chareidim will go to the army. The bench warmers will. (And October 8,9,10…many many chareidim went in their own to misrad hagiyus. If they were so desperate, were they taken?)