Tattoos in halacha

↑ watergirl ↓

Thu, Jul 11 2024, 12:25 pm

User5 wrote:

There are plenty of MO people that pick and choose their yiddishkeit. And I’m not talking about ex chassidish. Go visit some places in New Jersey (near Teaneck, iykyk) and you’ll see many ppl that are barely frum but identify as such (I.e. eat non kosher dairy is one example I’ve seen)

There are plenty of frum Jews of all stripes who pick and chose their yiddishkeit.

The ones who cheat on taxes.
The ones who speak incredible amounts of lashon hara.
The ones who operate illegal businesses.
The ones who dress in livush (pick one, yeshivish, chassidish, JPF, etc) and "behave" outside the home but inside, no brachos, no tfillin or minyan or davening ever, you name it, but they fit in where they live.

Shall I go on? I wont. But seriously, it's enough of this narrative that MO is any less than any other frum hashkafa.

Do people lessen their observance and declare themselves MO? Sure. Does it mean they are? No way. MO is very frum.

I am not MO, but I was when I first became frum. I've learned in depth the background, the hashkafa, I know the teachings. I believe in it.

The way people misunderstand MO is no different than the way people misunderstand Satmar. People really need to stop this narrative that MO is frum-lite.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Thu, Jul 11 2024, 12:39 pm

User5 wrote:

You are correct. There are frum jews of EVERY walk of life that pick and choose. What is your point? A charedi person that is no longer charedi is not automatically modern orthodox. THAT is the point.

And just to point out, not really on topic, but still, that in other places in the world, there are orthodox communities that have everyone coming to shul from a charedi rabbi to the guy who rides his motorcycle to come say yizkor on yk (true story). Only in america are the labels so darn important. Meaning if that guy would be asked what his label was he would probably also say orthodox because he was doing a jewish thing in an orthodox shul. But in america somehow its all very separate and thats not allways a good thing. As we see from this post and your reply to me.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Thu, Jul 11 2024, 12:41 pm

watergirl wrote:

It wasnt enough to just like your post. This is so perfectly said. Kol hakavod!

↑ User5

Thu, Jul 11 2024, 12:41 pm

watergirl wrote:

There are plenty of frum Jews of all stripes who pick and chose their yiddishkeit.

The ones who cheat on taxes.
The ones who speak incredible amounts of lashon hara.
The ones who operate illegal businesses.
The ones who dress in livush (pick one, yeshivish, chassidish, JPF, etc) and "behave" outside the home but inside, no brachos, no tfillin or minyan or davening ever, you name it, but they fit in where they live.

Shall I go on? I wont. But seriously, it's enough of this narrative that MO is any less than any other frum hashkafa.

Do people lessen their observance and declare themselves MO? Sure. Does it mean they are? No way. MO is very frum.

I am not MO, but I was when I first became frum. I've learned in depth the background, the hashkafa, I know the teachings. I believe in it.

The way people misunderstand MO is no different than the way people misunderstand Satmar. People
really need to stop this narrative that MO is frum-lite.

Eating kosher is like the one thing that identifies you as either frum or not. Someone that cheats is frum but did a huge sin. There’s a big difference.
You say MO is very frum. There can be ppl that are very frum that are MO p, but a very large percentage is not that frum at all.
Very frum MO is a dying concept. Most of their kids either become more yeshivish or less so….

↑ Ema of 5 ↓

Thu, Jul 11 2024, 12:45 pm

essie14 wrote:

And that's why we MO women here get so much flack that we are not frum
🙄🙄
Being lapsed chassidish and enjoying participating in a Pesach seder does not make someone MO.

And it also doesn’t make someone secular or OTD. It’s not chassidish, MO, or secular. There are more options (for lack of a better term) in between.

Hope2 ↓

Thu, Jul 11 2024, 12:47 pm

watergirl wrote:

I know three people all from the same frum group who all got tattoos, all using the same justification for it. I wonder if they shared their “sources”. Their claim is that the pesukim in the torah are referring to a different kind of tattoo, not the modern ink and method.

I’m just davening that everyone gains clarity and menuchas hanefesh.

Eta - because I see modern orthodox is getting quite a bashing here, I want to clarify that the women I am talking about are not modern orthodox. I am going to say that the three people I know are part of a chassidus. It’s shocking honestly.

Anything permanent on the body isn’t allowed.

And yes they can get buried in a Jewish cemetery but wherever they have tattoos has to be cut off..

↑ keym ↓

Thu, Jul 11 2024, 12:52 pm

Hope2 wrote:

Anything permanent on the body isn’t allowed.

And yes they can get buried in a Jewish cemetery but wherever they have tattoos has to be cut off..

You have a source for the last bit?
Is it required or only some chevra kadisha?
Holocaust survivors?
Radiation treatment patients?
Baalei Teshuva?
Does the Chevra kadisha research intent of the tattoo?

I have never heard this.
In fact the opposite.

↑ Ema of 5 ↓

Thu, Jul 11 2024, 12:53 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Also calling someone who changed hashkafa but is still shomer mitzvos otd is repulsive

Exactly!!!!! This is why I hate the term. There is a wonderful book written by Batya Ruddel called On Their Derech, which is what she uses those letters to mean, rather than the awful way others use it. A chassidish person or a yeshivish person who has moved to the left of how they were raised but is still perfectly frum might be off their (original) derech, but they are still most certainly on an acceptable derech. Even someone who is no longer religious at all generally has not thrown it all away.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Thu, Jul 11 2024, 12:54 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

In Europe many people drive. Secular or traditional. They attend the local or the familial shul. By default Orthodox (the place

↑ watergirl ↓

Thu, Jul 11 2024, 12:54 pm

Hope2 wrote:

Anything permanent on the body isn’t allowed.

And yes they can get buried in a Jewish cemetery but wherever they have tattoos has to be cut off..

You are correct that it's not allowed.

You are EXTREMELY incorrect about cutting off a tattoo before burial. I have no idea where these myths come from.

I was zoche to be in a Chevra Kaddisha for about three years. I was trained by Rabbi Zohn, the contemporary halachic expert in Jewish burial. Not only do we not cut the body (omg!) but if there is so much as a bandaid on the body and it's removed for the taharah, it gets buried with the meis if there was any blood on it.

No harm is done to the body ever after death. People are buried with tattoos or whatever else.

It's a very simple google to research and you will see how incorrect this urban legend is. It's a fear tactic to keep people in line. It's horrible.

Last edited by watergirl on Thu, Jul 11 2024, 12:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Thu, Jul 11 2024, 12:54 pm

User5 wrote:

Im sorry but you are also very obviously not MO and do not know enough about the entire community. There are very vibrant MO communities, not just in america. And they are not dying. And no, not all of their children are becoming more to the right or left.

Its so awful when people THINK they know what they are talking about but are obviously not from that community and are just giving lip service.

↑ watergirl ↓

Thu, Jul 11 2024, 12:57 pm

User5 wrote:

Someone who is MO eats only kosher.

Someone who says they are MO but eats treif is not MO.

↑ Ema of 5 ↓

Thu, Jul 11 2024, 1:00 pm

Hope2 wrote:

Anything permanent on the body isn’t allowed.

And yes they can get buried in a Jewish cemetery but wherever they have tattoos has to be cut off..

How can that be true, when the way are so medakdek to make sure everything is collected before death that they even collect blood spatter? Do you have a source for it being cut off? I was under the impression that a gif must be buried complete, hence the reason why many were (and still are) against organ donation.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Thu, Jul 11 2024, 1:08 pm

Hope2 wrote:

Anything permanent on the body isn’t allowed.

And yes they can get buried in a Jewish cemetery but wherever they have tattoos has to be cut off..

Im sorry but I think you heard wrong.
Have you heard of zaka? The holy holy men who find every last piece of skin or blood or anything that was left from a dead body, and it is buried.
How then does it make any sense that a whole part of a person should be taken off and not buried?

↑ Ema of 5 ↓

Thu, Jul 11 2024, 1:09 pm

User5 wrote:

You seem to be missing the point. Anyone can SAY they are whatever they want, but if they don’t follow Halacha within the guidelines of said sect, that sect won’t count them among their ranks. So I can say I am chassidish, but if I don’t cover my legs and I eat from hadhgachos or in places that are unacceptable to the chassidim I claim to be a part of, the way would not consider me chassidish. I can say I am yeshivish, but if my kids go to coed schools, no one yeshivish would consider me yeshivish. Same with MO. I can say I am MO, but if I eat on Yom Kippur and I go to Pizza Hut, most won’t consider me MO.

↑ watergirl

Thu, Jul 11 2024, 1:12 pm

User5 wrote:

As in eat in a Pizza Hut ( in America that has no kosher certification) and order a dairy product

You see a Jew eating at pizza hut. Do you engage him in discourse to find out his hashkafa? Or assume?

No one who is modern orthodox eats pizza at pizza hut. Get a coke? Sure. I’ll do it too. Food? No. And if the person says he is MO and is eating pizza hut food, he’s fooling himself.

↑ Hope2

Thu, Jul 11 2024, 1:35 pm

watergirl wrote:

Sorry very possible I’m wrong this is what I learned back in school..

↑ Aurora ↓

Thu, Jul 11 2024, 2:03 pm

User5 wrote:

Respectfully, I learned that there are three things that identify a person as frum: Shabbat, Kashrut, and Niddah.

And you are extremely wrong about frum MO.

↑ chassidisheveib

Thu, Jul 11 2024, 2:26 pm

Ema of 5 wrote:

For those that have Instagram, @tattoo_rabbi can answer all your questions.
He’s got sleeve tattoos and full leg tattoos b4 he became frum. (He did not know that tattoos were not allowed and he says he does regret getting them)