Tattoos in halacha

byisrael

Thu, Jul 11 2024, 12:19 pm

Ema of 5 wrote:

I agree with your first paragraph, that’s why I emphasized the word CALL. They can SAY whatever they want, even if it isn’t the reality.
Regarding the second paragraph, I would only say they are secular or OTD (I really hate that term) if they actually don’t keep any Halacha.
You’re right, tattoos are not a modern thing by any means. But I think that, here, when someone says that, they mean to say that it’s something done by people more on the left of the religious spectrum.

I think that we should start referring to this demographic as traditional.
They are orthodox aligned ( not conservative, reform, or secular) they keep halacha to the extent they are able/comfortable/ want to.

They may consider themselves modern orthodox because most modern orthodox communities will accept you as orthodox if you keep the three biggies ( kashrus, TH, and shabbos).

There is no modern orthodox rabbi who will say it is OK to get a tatoo - but they will still consider the person orthodox because they keep the 3 biggies.

Using the term modern orthodox for this crowd does a disservice to the more middle of the road or RW parts of the community who DO care about living a life guided by halacha - even if the the interpretation of halacha may be different then other communities.

That's why I think we need to bring the term traditional in - its a better description

icedcoffee

Thu, Jul 11 2024, 1:12 pm

byisrael wrote:

They may consider themselves modern orthodox because most modern orthodox communities will accept you as orthodox if you keep the three biggies ( kashrus, TH, and shabbos).

Not disagreeing with your post but this makes me think - I think a big part of the disconnect on these threads is that MO people are not as concerned with "accepting" others. I don't want to speak for anyone else, but my personal impression from reading threads here is that some other strands of Orthodoxy are more insular enclaves, and with that comes specific concerns about things like shidduchim or stricter communal norms / fitting in.

Where I live in Manhattan, many fellow young professionals come to MO shuls or events but may or may not identify as MO themselves. Or maybe they do consider themselves "part of the MO community," but wear pants / don't cover their hair etc. And plenty of those people keep taharat hamishpacha. But I'm not asking them how they personally choose to identify. It has nothing to do with me. If someone is going around telling people "oh yeah you can be MO and get tattoos and eat pepperoni pizza because look at me, I do it," then that would bother me because they're blatantly misrepresenting/lying about what MO is. But there hasn't been a time where it feels crucial to make any sort of decision about whether I personally "accept" someone else as MO or not. I don't even know what "rejecting" someone would look like - thinking to myself they don't seem very MO? Maybe, but does that actually translate to anything?

↑ shabbatiscoming

Thu, Jul 11 2024, 1:15 pm

Ruchel wrote:

In Europe many people drive. Secular or traditional. They attend the local or the familial shul. By default Orthodox (the place

Yup, thats what my in laws do as many south africans. They may not be what many here would know as orthodox, but they would only go to an orthodox shul, they drive there, but when they do anything jewish related, its within the confines of orthodox judaism.

jewishmommy1

Thu, Jul 11 2024, 2:45 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

And the truth is, this is really much better than deciding to identify with another label like conservative/reform. If someone does everything "within the confines of orthodox judaism" like ShabbatIsComing said, that means they recognize and accept Orthodox Judaism as the truth and then they do whatever they feel they can. But they're not twisting the truth like conservative and saying, "oh the Torah allows you to drive to get to shul on Shabbat and therefore when I do it it's allowed by the Torah" (chas veshalom!). They are simply honest with themselves about what they keep and don't keep.

ETA that I'm obviously not recommending/approving/saying that it's good if someone does avairos or doesn't keep the Torah! But twisting the Torah and saying that assur is mutar is even worse.

Shuly

Fri, Jul 12 2024, 6:54 am

I know chassidish girls who when they wanted to wear certain clothing, were told by their parents, no you can't wear that, it's looks too "Bais Yaakov!"

Bais Yaakov = not chassidish = modern = not tznius enough

In this case, looking like a Bais Yaakov girl was a bad thing.

↑ Ruchel

Fri, Jul 12 2024, 7:19 am

Shuly wrote:

We wonder why Moshiach isn't there

↑ readreread

Fri, Jul 12 2024, 7:51 am

Aurora wrote:

Respectfully, I learned that there are three things that identify a person as frum: Shabbat, Kashrut, and Niddah.

And you are extremely wrong about frum MO.

100%. No one in my MO community would DREAM of violating any of those three. This narrative that MO people are less frum because they don't follow YOUR community's chumrot is nonsense.

↑ Ema of 5

Fri, Jul 12 2024, 12:21 pm

readreread wrote:

100%. No one in my MO community would DREAM of violating any of those three. This narrative that MO people are less frum because they don't follow YOUR community's chumrot is nonsense.

This is something I really don’t understand. When it comes to someone breaking the law, everyone says “you can’t judge xxx sect by that behavior.” When someone says they belong to a certain sect but they do things that sect doesn’t, or don’t do things that sect does, people here will say “well, they can CALL themselves that sect, but they’re not.” Yet when it comes to MO, as long as someone says they are MO, then women here will stick to that, even when women here who are ACTUALLY MO say “that behavior is not ok, and that person is not actually MO.” Can anyone explain why that is?