Supreme court ruling- Drafting charedim

↑ Jewishmom8 ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 2:40 am

amother Mayflower wrote:

I posted above and no one responded. If the Torah protects then why was there a command at all to go out to war. And that was the BEST people.

Additionally, if every chareidi joins the army the military will look very different in terms of ruchniyus.

No one responded. Anyone? I say that every person that makes a blanket, wide and general rule of who can and can not go to the military has blood on their hands.

They all have the opportunity to comfortably say that it’s not Ehrlich because someone else is dying on their behalf.

To the amother who said Mashiach is never coming, I have heard that it says that in the times of Mashiach the Rabbis will be like dogs.

I don't in general like responding to people who post annon in an intentionally inflammatory way, and I kind of pulled back as this is a very painful time in general and I dont want to hurt people for no reason but,
the ruchnus of my children is the most important thing of my life. It is my prime responsibility.
protecting that is the most important thing.
No standard Charedi mother would put her child willingly in a situation that is a clear ruchnius danger.
When I say that everyone who wants to learn should do that I am talking about jews of every kind not just charedi.

↑ someone ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 2:40 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Those who are not in yeshiva should to to the army. That was the view of Rav Shach and at still stands today.

We all know it was Rav Shach's view and we all know it doesn't happen.

Quote:

This is from The Yeshiva World:

The Zakein Chevrei Moetzet Chachmei HaTorah, HaGaon HaRav Moshe Maya, said on Tuesday evening, hours before the Supreme Court’s ruling mandating the recruitment of bnei yeshivos, that even bochurim who aren’t learning cannot serve in the IDF due to ruchniyus issues.

Speaking to Kol B’Ramah, he said: “Even a bochur who isn’t learning in yeshivah cannot serve in the IDF. Whoever goes to the army today comes out as a mechallel Shabbos.”

He then sharpened his tone further, saying: “Serving in the army is a transgression of religion. There’s a clear halacha that tells us that it’s assur for a ben yeshivah to serve in the army. If they enter the yeshivos to recruit us – we’ll fight it. It’s like they’re trying to force us to be mechallel Shabbos.”

HaRav Maya then condemned those in the Religious-Zionist sector who supported the recruitment of Chareidim, explaining: “Those with kipot who attack lomdei Torah are making a grave mistake because if there wouldn’t be lomdei Torah, there would be many more fatalities in the war. Our tafkid in the war is to learn, learn and learn – only then will Hakadosh Baruch Hu instill fear in our enemies.”

(YWN Israel Desk – Jerusalem)

This is just one example. Countless rabbanim have said this recently.

HarrietW ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 2:46 am

Jewishmom8 wrote:

Answering under my screen name. I made an argument of why I believe that it’s right to join the army. I presume that with ruchniyus you mean serving Hashem and doing the right thing. I didn’t suggest that everyone should go to the military and do something wrong. I suggested everyone should go and do something RIGHT.

Do you know how many Halachos there are about not serving Hashem on someone else’s cheshbon? Every minute that your kids are home they are doing so on the blood of someone else. They are using Judaism to use other people.

Also, the Mirer yeshiva traveled to Japan. Why didn’t they stay if the Torah protects?

↑ someone ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 3:23 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

And what is your point?

You said that Rav Shach's position was that boys who aren't learning should serve. I showed you a quote (one of many) of a current gadol who says that boys who aren't learning also shouldn't serve. Which brings us back to the fact that the current situation is that chareidim get a ptor for being chareidi.

↑ essie14 ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 3:47 am

HarrietW wrote:

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

amother

Amaranthus

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 4:05 am

Success10 wrote:

Imagine if someone said:
If the IDF is meant to be protecting us, they are not doing it well, evidently.

No, I don't actually believe that, just trying to drive home how offensive your statement was

Agreed.
Torah protects us but immorality and lack of tznius sends the Shechina away.
ולא יראה בך ערות דבר ושב מאחריך
We need to fix that as a nation if we want protection.

amother

↑ Blonde ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 4:20 am

Once again in the days immediately following the advancement of the anti-chareidi draft bill there is a tragic incident in the idf r"l. Coincidence? I think not
I'm not saying it's not a problem. As someone mentioned upthread we will soon be the majority and the issue will need to be resolved. However this ruling now, overriding the will of the people through their democratically elected leaders is designed to cause division not results. And it's working. We keep seeing the same thing- divided we fall Crying

amother

↑ Papayawhip ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 4:40 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Since when has har habayit anything to do with this topic? Which Rabbanim allow going there?
And no, I never said I had a solution.

They're not directly related, but I brought it as an example to show you that Chareidim are more flexible than you. By flexible I mean, dynamics change and Chareidi leadership understands that.

(Of course there has been an acceptance about going up on Har Habayis. If you don't know that, I don't know what else you've been missing).

Bnei Brak, I think you're part of the older chareidi generation.

Now let me explain to you that the younger generation wants none of this nonsense.

We want real, constructive discussion. We're definitely secretly admiring the DL community.

And I want to stress that we're super, duper chareidi! We have family in BB, Midiin Ilit, Beit shemesh, Jerusalem and more. It's not like we want huge change, but we need to accept the reality on the ground in regard to safety of the country, the economy and how we can contribute and that different strokes for different folks. Not every man is made for full time learning. The ones who want to work should definitely serve first. That would be a great start.

Gimmel is definitely losing some votes if they don't start to behave like adults and take responsibility. We see straight through those talking points you've been writing about.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 4:52 am

amother Blonde wrote:

What in the world? What does that even mean?

↑ Success10 ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 4:55 am

This is more a response to "papayawhip":

Chareidi society has shown the ability to be flexible when battles are no longer battles that are meant to be fought. Having email and limited internet access would be an example. Yes, there extremists who still fight any sort of technology tooth and nail, but most normal Chareidim do live in the present, and have some sort of email access, they play frum videos for the kids in Bais Yaakov and cheder....Kosther smartphones are catching on... Things evolve and some battles are not worth fighting for anymore.

Har Habayis is an awful example as the Charedi stance on that issue has not changed one inch. We still don't go up there.

The army issue has evolved as well, if a young chareidi man who is not learning and needs structure asks a personal shayla, he will often be directed to the army, as a good solution for him, personally. But as a whole, Chareidim are not yet changing their hashkafa on the army issue, and are not enlisting en masse. And it's not because they lack the ability to be flexible when needed. There's obviously still real issues there.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 4:59 am

amother Papayawhip wrote:

Many of yours points I agree with Smile

And I fully agree with the view of Rav Shach, you aren't learning go to IDF or sherut leumi.
What I oppose is the propaganda that gius chareidim would solve any problems the army has.
We have too few people of what the army needs and too many that the army doesn't need.
Why else do you think so many chilonim get a ptur from IDF and being dismissed months in advance before they finish their service? Because IDF doesn't NEED them.

amother

↑ Papayawhip ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 4:59 am

Success10 wrote:

You'll only know once you go up there and see for yourself how many hundreds of Chareidim go there especially on Tisha bav and YT.

And no, the Rabbonim who allow it won't say so publicly. They don't want to be cancelled. But if ask them privately, some endorse going there.

↑ camp123

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 5:04 am

Jewishmom8 wrote:

Let's say you had to compromise the ruchnious of you child, but you knew if you did so with certainty that you would save ten Jews who otherwise could not be saved, would you really not do it?
Is the ruchnious of your child worth more that the lives of countless Jews. The only real argument against this is by saying that the army had enough manpower without the charadim to be effective. Clearly, if they didn't and everyone agreed they didn't the ruchnious of your child wouldn't come before saving thousands of Jewish lives.

↑ DrMom ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 5:31 am

amother Blonde wrote:

How do you know the cause and effect relationship here?

Maybe there was a tragic incident because charedi leaders are inflexible and refuse to allow their followers to serve.