Supreme court ruling- Drafting charedim

amother

↑ Blonde

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 5:34 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

What in the world? What does that even mean?

https://m.jpost.com/breaking-n.....07992
Look it up...every time they advance this bill you open up the news a day or two later and either it's friendly fire or explosions but there's a story that involves multiple deaths or injuries.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 5:41 am

amother Blonde wrote:

https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-807992
Look it up...every time they advance this bill you open up the news a day or two later and either it's friendly fire or explosions but there's a story that involves multiple deaths or injuries.

And you think there is a connection?
Im sorry but I dont know if thsts sick, rude or something else I cant think of right now.

amother

↑ Jasmine ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 5:49 am

Bnei Break, please look up אחוזי גיוס for your favorite chiloni areas, you'll see that it's quite high. The argument that lots of chilonim don't serve is not an effective argument, as it isn't true.

Which does not mean every single human in this country has what the army needs right now. Obviously there are people who aren't fit to serve, and also obviously they assign some soldiers to roles that are dubiously necessary (band, as an example) because those soldiers aren't a fit for the more important jobs.

However, the army does lack manpower. They do need soldiers. So some of the charedim who show up at lishkat giyus will be turned away or given silly jobs. I agree that might feel frustrating. However, the ones that are given significant jobs will be shouldering an important burden because, yes, the army needs them.

amother

Electricblue ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 5:53 am

I haven't followed this conversation because I try to avoid controversial threads for my own mental health but I just wanted to put this here:

I have a son and a son in law in the army. They are defending our country. I believe they are exactly where they should be.
I have sons in yeshiva. They are learning for our country. I believe they are exactly where they should be.

(I also don't think anyone is in any more or less danger. When Hashem decides it's your time to go, you will go, whether you're fighting in Gaza or sitting by your shtender.)

amother

↑ Jasmine ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 5:56 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

And you think there is a connection?
Im sorry but I dont know if thsts sick, rude or something else I cant think of right now.

I actually think there is a huge connection between our country's morale/success, and infighting. However I don't think it's connected to one party or another. It's all of the leaders who, instead of figuring out how to solve things harmoniously, dig in their heels and insist on doing things their way by force, with no regard to the population that doesn't share their opinion. Every single party behaves this way when they try to push contentious legislation, and it is this weakness that leads to our failures.

amother

↑ Jasmine ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 5:59 am

amother Electricblue wrote:

So that's nice in theory, but the law in this country is a mandatory draft, with certain exceptions. If they would abolish the draft for all, we could each decide whether to go to the army, or on some other life path. In the meantime it's been determined that the draft is necessary for the survival of the country. Which means that what's best for each individual is not a factor. In this case the klal comes first.

garfield

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 6:52 am

I understand the Chareidi view that the yeshivos and learning are the spiritual iron dome, and do agree with this, but I think it would be a far stronger argument to the chiloni public if the yeshivos were to operate on a ‘war footing’, so to speak. Cancel bein hazmanim, do a mandatory rota of learning around the clock ( shifts), as a lot of the fighting happens at night, match each yeshiva with a unit and each learner with a personal soldier (I understand this happens already as individual schemes, but perhaps it needs formalising?) and show how seriously the chareidim take the responsibility of being the spiritual iron dome. And publicise it so the chilonim can see the chareidim showing up.

If you have an exemption, it’s a serious responsibility, not a ‘get out of jail free’ card. And if someone can’t meet that level of demand, then I’m sorry, I don’t think they should be exempt from the IDF.

In terms of not joining the IDF because the environment is not spiritually good enough- so work with the army and find a solution. Isn’t this a time of pikuach nefesh?

ora_43 ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 7:21 am

amother Blonde wrote:

There's been more than 1 soldier killed per day, on average, for the past several months. What you're saying is true. It's equally true that every time a hareidi rabbi speaks against enlistment, there's always a story right after involving death or injury. And every time we talk about it on imamother, there's a story shortly after involving death or injury. And every time I go to the store to buy tomatoes, there's a story shortly after involving death or injury.

One finds oneself tempted to believe that Hashem isn't smiting random people just to send a message to whoever upset you this week.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 7:29 am

Success10 wrote:

Chareidi society has shown the ability to be flexible when battles are no longer battles that are meant to be fought. Having email and limited internet access would be an example. Yes, there extremists who still fight any sort of technology tooth and nail, but most normal Chareidim do live in the present, and have some sort of email access, they play frum videos for the kids in Bais Yaakov and cheder....Kosther smartphones are catching on... Things evolve and some battles are not worth fighting for anymore.

I don't think this is a good example, because having internet access is extremely convenient on a personal level. It's a lot easier to compromise on principle to do something fun and easy, than compromise on principle to do something dangerous and difficult and boring.

amother

Buttercup

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 7:31 am

amother Electricblue wrote:

I haven't followed this conversation because I try to avoid controversial threads for my own mental health but I just wanted to put this here:

I have a son and a son in law in the army. They are defending our country. I believe they are exactly where they should be.
I have sons in yeshiva. They are learning for our country. I believe they are exactly where they should be.

(I also don't think anyone is in any more or less danger. When Hashem decides it's your time to go, you will go, whether you're fighting in Gaza or sitting by your shtender.)

Kol hakavod to your son and son in law who are serving and also to your sons who are learning seriously.

However, I don't understand how can you say this? There are thousands of soldiers who have been injured, many in life altering ways, in this war. (Not even mentioning deaths.) No yeshiva bochrim have been injured like this. Do you not believe there is a correlation?

amother

↑ Papayawhip

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 7:33 am

ora_43 wrote:

I think a better example would be wearing Techeilas. It's considered controversial but lately, they started selling it in local stores and many people are wearing it tucked in.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 7:37 am

The Supreme Court desperately needs reform. I'm 98% convinced they're being deliberately inflexible on the hareidi draft issue, because they like being able to drag it out any time they don't like the current government.

(I didn't love the reform on the table last year, but a reform is needed)

But the court is only wrong, not 100% wrong about everything. The current situation isn't remotely fair.

It was hard enough having a country where 15% of the population felt no interest in the state and no obligation to contribute. Now we're in a situation where between Arabs and hareidim it's going to be more like 30% if not 40%. That would be an impossible situation even without the part where non-hareidim are supposed to fund the same hareidi institutions that teach generation after generation that the state is oppressing them.

↑ Aurora ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 8:18 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Please don't try to twist my words. You perfectly understand that I was giving an example, a mashal.

I'm not twisting your words. You set out a direct parallel between Medinat Yisrael and Pharaoh.

"DH says medinat Israel, with it's anti-chareidi attitude and zero will to adapt to chareidim conditiond actually bred generations of chareidim until today.
Just like Pharao bred Moshe Rabeinu in his lap."

↑ Iymnok ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 8:19 am

ora_43 wrote:

This is the real problem. Legislating from the bench. Hello! We have an elected government!
That it was unanimous and the AG immediately insisted on implementing it. No plan, no talks with the principals and local Chareidi leaders, just, "enforce it now!"
That ever works for anyone! The judiciary and the AG are purposely driving a wedge into religious society. The war has created so much unity that the left is getting scared.
Look right here, on imamother, we have different Jews fighting. We usually get along.
Mazal tov, they achieved their goal. They injected sinas chinam successfully.
And swallowed it whole.

I know that every religious jew in Israel is trying their best to do what they understand that Hashem wants of them.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 8:25 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

DH says medinat Israel, with it's anti-chareidi attitude and zero will to adapt to chareidim conditiond actually bred generations of chareidim until today.

And the hareidi community, with its overt disdain for hilonim and complete refusal to play any part in constructive citizenship, has bred generations of antireligious hilonim.

Or at least, that statement is just as true as yours. I'm equally OK with assigning each community the blame for its own stubborn self.

↑ DrMom ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 8:26 am

Iymnok wrote:

I don't see how this is "legislating from the bench."

The law (passed by the Knesset) is that everyone must serve. A separate law (also passed by the Knesset) providing a temporary exemption expired. Therefore, people who were previously exempt have no more exemption.

It is entirely appropriate for the Supreme Court to comment on this.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 8:28 am

Iymnok wrote:

The judiciary and the AG are purposely driving a wedge into religious society. The war has created so much unity that the left is getting scared.

I don't think they're trying to split religious society. I think they're trying to split Bibi's coalition.

(And I don't think we ever agreed on this issue; a lot of dati-leumi people are not at all happy with low hareidi enlistment rates, and are even less likely than hilonim to accept 'but nobody stays frum in the army' as an explanation.)

↑ ora_43 ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 8:32 am

DrMom wrote:

The problem is that the Supreme Court also strikes down laws meant to regulate/formalize the situation as unconstitutional.

Meaning the only legal solutions are to get rid of mandatory enlistment, or force hareidim to serve. Both of those are essentially impossible.

A Court that mandates the impossible isn't doing its job right. There were legal workarounds - whether here, or by accepting a previously suggested law. They just weren't interested in finding them.

amother

↑ Electricblue

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 8:35 am

amother Buttercup wrote:

I disagree. but that's just my opinion. Of course more soldiers than yeshiva guys have been killed this year. However, I completely believe that when Hashem decides your time is over, your time is over. It doesn't matter where you are or what you're doing. If a certain chayal was killed, he would have been killed if he was walking down the street in a safe neighborhood or sitting in yeshiva that day. Hashem decided his time here was over.

↑ Bnei Berak 10

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 9:31 am

ora_43 wrote:

The reform is The Key. No wonder Bagatz and the establishment went beserk when Yariv Levin presented it.