Supreme court ruling- Drafting charedim

amother

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 8:28 am

After todays ruling- are the yeshiva bochurim that could be drafted going to learn in the US?

In Navi Hashem warns that its a privilege to live in EY, and when we don't behave He kicks us out. Do we realize that its a gift that can be taken away at any moment? That Moshiach is not here? That we're still in galus? Tifrach and Ponovich and Wolfson etc are not going to enlist en masse, its not going to happen. So what is going to happen?

amother

Papayawhip

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 8:37 am

Chareidim should definitely be contributing to the safeguarding of the country. Why are they exempt?

There should also be lots of men learning Torah.

But let's be real, many of our boys in yeshivah would do much better in the army. Not everyone is made for full time learning. I have some relatives doing shady teenage business, bored and unmotivated. Why?

Also, If the torah learning is meant to protect us, the chareidim are not doing it well. Evidently. Way to many tragic deaths with the terrorist attack and during the war.

Can't have it all ways.

In one of the newspapers, someone wrote, let's open an investigation to determine why torah isn't protecting enough.

Success10

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 8:46 am

amother Papayawhip wrote:

Chareidim should definitely be contributing to the safeguarding of the country. Why are they exempt?

Also, If the torah learning is meant to protect us, the chareidim are not doing it well. Evidently. Way to many tragic deaths with the terrorist attack and during the war.

Can't have it all ways.

In one of the newspapers, someone wrote, let's open an investigation to determine why torah isn't protecting enough.

Imagine if someone said:
If the IDF is meant to be protecting us, they are not doing it well, evidently.

No, I don't actually believe that, just trying to drive home how offensive your statement was

amother

Papayawhip

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 8:49 am

Success10 wrote:

If the IDF is meant to be protecting us, they are not doing it well, evidently.

No, I don't actually believe that, just trying to drive home how offensive your statement was

Why is it offensive? They keep on saying that their Torah learning is protecting the whole Am Yisroel. If they wouldn't be claiming this, I wouldn't be thinking it.

And absolutely. The IDF could probably be doing a better job too!!

BTW, were very chareidi and my husband is learning. I was just having this discussion with him after too many of our soldiers died in Rafah.

Success10

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 8:58 am

amother Papayawhip wrote:

You only see the tragedies that occurred. You have no idea of the untold horrors that were prevented in the zechus of Torah learning, and in the zechus of the heroic actions of the IDF.

amother

Jasmine

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 9:05 am

amother Papayawhip wrote:

Since you self-identified as "very charedi" I salute you for your balanced perspective.

Nobody seems to know what this new ruling will look like, if implemented. But for argument's sake, let's say all the boys who aren't actually learning full-time will need to draft. There will still be plenty of men under and over army age in yeshiva full-time plus, presumably, all the 18-21 year olds who are truly shteiging. So the batlanim will need to spend 3 years of their lives in the army? Arguably, as you said, they'll be better off.

What's bothered me a lot about the whole "emptying the batei medrash" rhetoric: ask any first-year hesder student what their batei medrash looked like this past winter zman. Why is the Torah of the hesder boys worth less than the Torah of the charedi boys? Maybe if the non-learning charedi boys would have been enlisted, the hesder boys would have been able to stay in yeshiva and keep learning.

someone

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 9:06 am

amother OP wrote:

What's going to happen? I don't know, but I can say what I hope will happen.
The government will manage to pass a law that is actually fair and balanced. The army will keep its promises and create chareidi battalions and units that provide them with the conditions they need. The chareidi leadership will work together with the army not against it, to ensure that everything is the way it should be. There is a real opportunity here for change, if all of the parties involved can rise up to the occasion and not just use it as an opportunity to get some headlines and change nothing.
And above all - maybe we can finally let go of this ridiculous fallacy that people have to choose between learning Torah and serving in the army!! Its simply not true. If you want proof that people can be true bnei torah and lomdei torah and also gibborim in the army, look up the soldier who was killed at the end of last week, Saadya Yaakov Deri Hy"d. He is one example of many

amother

Jasmine

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 9:07 am

Success10 wrote:

Imagine if someone said:
If the IDF is meant to be protecting us, they are not doing it well, evidently.

No, I don't actually believe that, just trying to drive home how offensive your statement was

Lots of people have said that since October 7th. And that's part of why there has been awareness that our army needs reinforcements...

amother

Jasmine

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 9:12 am

someone wrote:

You're right. Unfortunately the charedi party representatives are rather stubborn. I don't see them being open to negotiating anything.

BadTichelDay

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 9:52 am

Success10 wrote:

Imagine if someone said:
If the IDF is meant to be protecting us, they are not doing it well, evidently.

No, I don't actually believe that, just trying to drive home how offensive your statement was

But lots of people are saying just that. 7th of October is at least partially the IDF's fault and failure, which is why there are ongoing investigations an commissions of enquiry and once the war is over, a lot of army brass will have to give unpleasant answers.

Unlike some chareidim, the IDF actually can and does face criticism.

LovesHashem

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 9:54 am

Success10 wrote:

Imagine if someone said:
If the IDF is meant to be protecting us, they are not doing it well, evidently.

No, I don't actually believe that, just trying to drive home how offensive your statement was

Actually alot of people are saying that. Me included. The IDF messed up big time.

But it's ratzon hashem. There's no other logical explanation.

Iymnok

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 9:57 am

amother Papayawhip wrote:

Obviously you haven't been talking to soldiers from the field. They experience miracles daily.
What do you think when a news article says that dozens of terrorists were killed and we lost one soldier? How are the others so protected?

Success10

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 10:00 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Actually alot of people are saying that. Me included. The IDF messed up big time.

But it's ratzon hashem. There's no other logical explanation.

The establishment failed, but no one would blame the 19 yo soldiers for Oct. 7th. To me that's what it sounds like when they say the Torah learners aren't learning enough.

amother

Lawngreen

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 10:03 am

amother Papayawhip wrote:

They can go do other jobs besides army if not Torah. Why Army? To become a priority for Hamas when looking fo rhostages or put your life in danger every day?

amother

Papayawhip

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 10:20 am

amother Jasmine wrote:

Absolutely!

Very good point.

My very chareidi husband likes to say that the chareidi world completely ignore the many very respectable DL yeshivos.

I don't know. Is this what hashem wants?

We've started talking about this recently. We hope things change. By the time my boys will be draft age, I hope there will be less stigma of chareidim in the army. I'll be very proud if one of them serve.

We went to the kosel on Shavuos and there were many lovely young Hesder boys there. We literally wouldn't know they exist in the circles we run. I don't know how it makes any sense.

amother

Papayawhip

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 10:25 am

Honestly, we cannot have it all ways. We want all of our men learning full time, we want government funding for kollelim no less.

The mayor of one of the chareidi cities actually proposed last year that part of a chiloni city's tax should go to them because they have less income. (I can verify exact details later).

Honestly, we've gotten so entitled. And no one dare critisize us! Oh, then it's just hating on us. Chareidi population is only getting bigger. We need a plan asap for how we will be contributing to society.

I don't know, I just want honest discussions with chareidi gedolim and politians.

Bnei Berak 10

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 10:30 am

amother Papayawhip wrote:

In one of the newspapers, someone wrote, let's open an investigation to determine why torah isn't protecting enough.

You are dangerously playing with fire.
To claim the above is to open up a battle with HaShem himself.
How about an investigation where the shortcomings of ourselves are in focus?

amother

Gold

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 10:42 am

amother Jasmine wrote:

You're right. Unfortunately the charedi party representatives are rather stubborn. I don't see them being open to negotiating anything.

This is indeed the problem. If there is a will there is a way. I.e. if there is a rotation of 3000 men going on army duty, why don't they set up a partnership program where other men sign up to learn for extra hours? This way no actual learning hours are lost. This can be a global program and there should be more than enough people to make up the shortfall. Many people would welcome an opportunity to contribute to the current war.