Supreme court ruling- Drafting charedim

Bnei Berak 10

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 6:36 pm

someone wrote:

I totally understand why so many people feel the way that you do. And I think everyone agrees that the army didn't do anywhere near enough over the years to make it possible for chareidim to serve. And it's certainly true that the whole shivyon bnetel campaign was always a cheap political campaign and the army didn't really want or need chareidim.
But things on the ground have changed, and I think its important to understand that. There is a genuine lack of soldiers. The chareidi population is b"H growing fast and is a much larger percentage of the population. This isn't another cheap campaign (although there are people who are using it as one), it's a genuine problem. This time the army really does need chareidim and I really believe that they are willing to make the changes necessary to make that happen. Its hard to give people another chance when they have let you down in the past but I would strongly encourage everyone to do so. The way the army are talking about recruiting chareidim is different from anything I remember in the past.
And I'm not sure the chareidi population understand how much anger and frustration there is among the rest of the people, including very very chardal people (myself included). I have three brother in laws who have been on miluim since Simchat Torah (who by the way are all in full time learning or teach in yeshivot) and another two who have been in and out. There are families in my yishuv whose father has been on miluim almost non stop for 8 months, some of those families have 7 or 8 kids. We have to increase the number of soldiers to lessen the burden on the people who do serve. And the only way to do that is through cooperation.

Question: then how come so many non-religious get exemption from army service if there's such a lack of soldiers?
Statistics show chilonim definitely don't do 100% army service.

amother

Papayawhip

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 8:10 pm

Bnei Brak 10, don't you realize how you sound?

I am chareidi too, in chassidish circles and I am cringing when reading your posts.

Do you remember when no chareidi would go up on Har habayis?

What happened lately that more Rabbonim allow it and many many chareidim go?

We need to get on with the times, within the framework of halacha. Stop fighting the progression of the state and the dynamics of the demographics of Israelis. We'll soon be the majority.

What is your solution?

amother

Wandflower

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 11:44 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Question: then how come so many non-religious get exemption from army service if there's such a lack of soldiers?
Statistics show chilonim definitely don't do 100% army service.

You keep asking this, but do you actuay have numbers?
Also, if chiloni men are getting exemptions, its not an entire community, like the charedim.

camp123

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 11:55 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Question: then how come so many non-religious get exemption from army service if there's such a lack of soldiers?
Statistics show chilonim definitely don't do 100% army service.

Even if it were true that there were thousands of secular Israeli's not serving which is totally not true, two wrongs don't make a right. Charadim would never want to be compared to these secular people who don't want to do anything to protect the estate. It's just the most ridiculous defence, "they're not helping so we don't need to either." Seriously, no serious charadi ever says this. The only reason reason charadim don't want any charadi to serve is they are scared they will become not charadi and they don't want people to become too "Israeli" in their beliefs and haskafa, historically they wanted the charadi community to keep separate from the state and anything connected to maintain and grow a distinct Torah community free of outside influences. And they did a great job and the community has grown such that it will soon become half of the Israeli population and so now things must change.

the world's best mom

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 12:03 am

This is from The Yeshiva World:

The Zakein Chevrei Moetzet Chachmei HaTorah, HaGaon HaRav Moshe Maya, said on Tuesday evening, hours before the Supreme Court’s ruling mandating the recruitment of bnei yeshivos, that even bochurim who aren’t learning cannot serve in the IDF due to ruchniyus issues.

Speaking to Kol B’Ramah, he said: “Even a bochur who isn’t learning in yeshivah cannot serve in the IDF. Whoever goes to the army today comes out as a mechallel Shabbos.”

He then sharpened his tone further, saying: “Serving in the army is a transgression of religion. There’s a clear halacha that tells us that it’s assur for a ben yeshivah to serve in the army. If they enter the yeshivos to recruit us – we’ll fight it. It’s like they’re trying to force us to be mechallel Shabbos.”

HaRav Maya then condemned those in the Religious-Zionist sector who supported the recruitment of Chareidim, explaining: “Those with kipot who attack lomdei Torah are making a grave mistake because if there wouldn’t be lomdei Torah, there would be many more fatalities in the war. Our tafkid in the war is to learn, learn and learn – only then will Hakadosh Baruch Hu instill fear in our enemies.”

(YWN Israel Desk – Jerusalem)

amother

Wandflower

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 12:07 am

the world's best mom wrote:

This is the saddest thing to read.
Not only are they saying every ben tirah will come out mechalel shabbos, but also that the dati leumi rabbanim who agree with this are bad too?
Such terrible sinas chinam.
Mashiach is never coming. Never.

essie14

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 12:09 am

the world's best mom wrote:

This is vile and disgusting.
Verbally attacking the sector who is losing boys every single week to this war????
And they expect people to respect them??

chestnut

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 12:12 am

the world's best mom wrote:

How could he say the bolded?!! Isn't it lashon hara and/or Motze shem rah about so many frum soldiers?

amother

Jasmine

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 12:20 am

the world's best mom wrote:

I'm sorry to be disrespectful, but this quote is mamash all over the place.

Is it about actual chilul shabbos? Torah learning? Some grave sin comparable to chilul shabbos?

I think they need to get their talking points in order.

essie14

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 12:36 am

Watch: IDF soldier completes Talmud tractate at the Rafah Crossing

https://www.israelnationalnews.....92162

Everyone needs to watch this. EVERYONE!

Somehow, learning and serving in the army is do-able! Imagine that!

Oh, but they have the wrong kippah so I guess their learning isn't worth anything. Certainly it's not protecting themselves or their fellow soldiers because that can only be done by Chareidi boys learning in a cushy beit midrash. Silly me.
/s

Bnei Berak 10

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 2:20 am

camp123 wrote:

You didn't ask my question: WHY so many chilonim get a ptur of army service when there's is a lack of soldiers?

someone

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 2:27 am

First of all, the fact that so many chilonim get a ptor for no good reason is also not ok. But don't you see the difference? There are all kinds of individuals who get a ptor in various ways to get out of army service. But there are only two groups in the population who are exempt due to the very fact that they belong to that group - Arabs and lehavdil chareidim. The original agreement between Ben Gurion and the Chazon Ish was a small group of full time Torah learners, but it turned into an automatic exemption for anyone who is chareidi, including those everyone knows aren't learning at all. That is what has to change.

amother

Mayflower

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 2:30 am

I posted above and no one responded. If the Torah protects then why was there a command at all to go out to war. And that was the BEST people.

Additionally, if every chareidi joins the army the military will look very different in terms of ruchniyus.

No one responded. Anyone? I say that every person that makes a blanket, wide and general rule of who can and can not go to the military has blood on their hands.

They all have the opportunity to comfortably say that it’s not Ehrlich because someone else is dying on their behalf.

To the amother who said Mashiach is never coming, I have heard that it says that in the times of Mashiach the Rabbis will be like dogs.

Bnei Berak 10

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 2:33 am

amother Papayawhip wrote:

Since when has har habayit anything to do with this topic? Which Rabbanim allow going there?
And no, I never said I had a solution.

Bnei Berak 10

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 2:38 am

someone wrote:

Those who are not in yeshiva should to to the army. That was the view of Rav Shach and at still stands today.