S/o kollel ppl should live simply

sandyish

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 5:03 pm

OP, you are making a huge huge sacrifice by supporting your husband in kollel. This is something that’s often overlooked now that kollel is so mainstream. You are sacrificing your right to not have the burden of parnasa on your shoulders, sacrificing the ability to stay home with your tiny babies, taking on the role of breadwinner in addition to- in your words- laundry, cooking, taking care of your multiple kids. You are sacrificing the ability to relax after a hectic bedtime because you still have 3 more hours of work. Your children are sacrificing the option of ever having a stay at home mother. They (and you) are often sacrificing having a father home on sundays, or in the evenings.

You should only make a sacrifice this enormous on behalf of a husband who is truly worthy of it. A husband who is worthy of a sacrifice of this magnitude would be a true ehrliche ben torah who is immersed 100% in his learning and is constantly growing in his avodas Hashem. He is a husband who imbues your home and your children with kedusha and Simcha with the privilege of spending his day surrounded by torah. He is not just a man who loves learning- after all, many men love learning and they are kovea ittim. No, a husband worthy of all you are giving up to support him, whose learning is worth it for you to take on such enormous responsibilities, would need to be something above the norm.

A husband worthy of the tremendous sacrifice you are making would never feel comfortable with, or endorse, going on exotic vacations, living in a lavish house, eating at fancy restaurants. He would never choose to use his limited time and brain space on the materialistic lifestyle you described, and he would never willingly raise his children with the values that go along with that sort of lifestyle.

And consequently, a husband who happily goes along with a luxurious lifestyle with no qualms, is not a husband who is worthy of a sacrifice of the magnitude you are making. He is someone who can be kovea ittim and still be a wonderful yid, but he is not someone on the caliber that you should be sacrificing so much of your life to support his learning in kollel. Don’t sell yourself short.

Last edited by sandyish on Mon, Jun 24 2024, 5:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Offwhite

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 5:10 pm

I know many people that live a comfortable lifestyle while in kollel but they usually have family money. They would be living this way regardless of whether they had jobs or learned in kollel but it’s just not relevant to me. I work extremely hard as does my husband. I don’t begrudge people for living a more carefree life than I do that is the reality of life! There will always be people who have things that I don’t have but I make an effort to only focus on what I have. Bh I have lots of blessing in my life and that doesn’t change if my neighbor has more than I have. About tzedaka, you don’t need to give to any cause that you don’t feel is an appropriate use of your maaser.

amother

↑ Lightblue

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 5:18 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Kollel men should take it far more seriously than a job. The whole family life should breathe Torah values.

You don’t get to project onto others what Torah values look like.

The wealthy son in law kollel men I know, are eidel and refined yungeleit. They’ve never held a smartphone, their language is different than a working man, they are truly special men. Yet at the same time they were given beautiful apartments, often second homes in the Catskills as well. Their wives are well dressed - tznius yet tasty, because they grew up wealthy and are getting their stuff sponsored by their parents.

Lucky for them. I fargin them wholeheartedly and can appreciate that their homes have the Torah taste that full time learning gives, as well as the comfort of living well. Both can be true. It is arrogant of you to demand something from familie you haven’t contributed to. (Even if you would’ve given charity the Halacha wouldn’t be on your side….)

I remener an older woman in my community publicly yelling and shaming a young woman that since she is one who wears double covered wigs , she has no right to wear certain trendy clothes, because she’s ‘supposed to set an example’. Um no. She is responsible for her own ruchniyus. It is nobody’s business. It is disgusting to stereotype people and demand of them according to your own projections.

amother

NeonPink

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 6:54 pm

sandyish wrote:

Wow this post is off on so many levels. You invested so much effort in passionately advising her that her that she's selling herself short because you decided her husband is not on the level you decided he should be. Imagining writing this post putting down someone's husband about anything else. Only with kollel, anything goes. What is wrong with all of you.

Chayalle ↓

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 7:20 pm

amother Peachpuff wrote:

I think there is an issue with the attitude of many in kollel. Kollel has become a lifestyle at this point. In my opinion, many people in kollel are not learning seriously and should be working to fulfill their kesuba.

I was at a very very yeshivish cousin's wedding right before "yeshivah week" and they were all discussing their vacation plans. They asked my husband his plans and guess what, he works and isn't just entitled to a vacation.

I think kollel people should be taking kollel as seriously as they would a job. (Going every day on time, no matter what etc.)

When all these issues are combined with the spending it just feels off to me. It feels more like a lifestyle than actually being machshiv Torah.

Well, I'm trying to convince DH that he needs to attend all of his daughter's Sheva Brachos, even if it will mean missing a week of night seders.

Perhaps I'm not taking his learning seriously enough.

I don't know who your "they" are, but most Kollel people I know are like DH.

Mommyg8 ↓

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 7:47 pm

amother Snapdragon wrote:

I think there is also a disconnect with the message that is frequented among us. Society is constantly hit upon collecting funds for kollel. There are multiple discounts exclusively for kollel. It lends the impression that society is supporting most of kollel people.

And then you turn around and see numerous kollel families living larger than the average working family. It doesn't connect with the message out there. If so many kollel people are managing beautifully and there are equal amount of poor people in all groups, why are we singling out to support kollel families and leaving others to fend for themselves.?

Maybe if we don't discriminate tzedaka based on kollel status, it would become a non-issue.

I'm not responding specifically to this post... and I didn't read through the whole thread yet.

But it always puzzled me that people think the "kollel lifestyle" is eating bread and water, and wearing rags, and they're cheating if they're doing more.

Hashem created an unequal world, for reasons that I don't fully understand.

Some people are poor all their lives, even if both parents work full time jobs, and some people work a few hours a day and are beyond wealthy.

And some people literally go through suffering, yesurim mamesh, to live in kollel, while some are handed kollel on a silver platter.

I think that it was Rabbi Akiva who bought his wife a special headpiece made of gold, and when the other wives complained to their husbands that they deserve the same, their husbands answered - did you suffer the way Rochel did? Rachel's mesiras nefesh for Torah has always been an inspiration for all of us women, throughout the ages, but there were other wives of talmedei chachamim as well, who didn't sacrifice the way Rochel did.

So back to the original question - if Hashem has gifted the kollel family with wealth and an easy lifestyle - is that wrong? No, there's nothing WRONG with it. Obviously, we look up to those who are seriously moser nefesh for Torah, but just because someone doesn't... doesn't make them not the real thing. They are still learning Torah, there's nothing tainted about their learning.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 7:58 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

It's fact of life that kollel most of the times come with a financial sacrifice. One income isn't like two incomes. You have less. Does it makes sense to you?
A few ones learn in kollel and are from multimillionaires families. It exists but it's rare.
The question is: What is his/her focus?
As explained previously you CANNOT focus on both of them at the same time.

I think that in Eretz Yisroel this is much more the case. Most of the kollel people (at least the ones I know who are my relatives) are very, very poor.

In the US it's much more common to have rich parents support their children in kollel. So many kollel families here have the equivalent of two incomes. And many have more.

amother

↑ Heather

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 9:21 pm

amother Navyblue wrote:

You are describing the tiniest minority of kollel families as if your description is relevant to the majority. What percent of kollel families go to Israel for weeks in the summer, buy name brand thousand dollar strollers, all while lining up for local tzedaka handouts?

You may as well talk about “those orthodox parents who abusively beat their kids,” or “those frum men who run around town philandering with women” or some other such absurd generalization.

The overwhelming majority of kollel families who take help can only dream of a family summer in Israel or other such luxuries. They are lucky not to end each month in the red and keep the utilities from being shut off, and they certainly do not look down on others who are poor. Shame on you! You were motzi Shem rah on an entire class of people and owe them an apology. This is classic motzi Shem Rah on an entire group or class of people as discussed in the Chafetz Chaim’s Sefer shmiras halashon and is a serious aveira, even when accurate; all the more so when the generalization is baseless, like yours.

I didn't say it was all kollel families. Just some. And if anyone needs help- they should get.
But as someone who has to think twice before buying socks due to expensive medical needs and job loss- I was saying that everyone deserves help. Not just specific professions such as kollel.

amother

↑ OP

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 10:43 pm

sandyish wrote:

Thank you so much for describing my husband perfectly. He is everything you said and more. The difference is that I’m not “sacrificing.” I am so happy to be able to give everything so that my husband can learn. He is someone that will never put down his sefer unless it is to talk to me or my kids. While he’s eating while he’s walking. He doesn’t schmooz with friends except in learning. Yes, he is the real deal. And guess what? He grew up with luxuries. No, he’ll never come with me to Target. And he does not enjoy going out to eat. But he will- if I ask him to. Because he knows I enjoy it. You’re not taking shalom bayis into account when you mention that a husband that does that should be going to work. There’s not a single person in real life who would suggest my husband should go to work because he doesn’t belong in kollel.

amother

Pearl

Mon, Jun 24 2024, 11:43 pm

sandyish wrote:

I disagree with you.
We were in kollel for 11 years, husband is now a Rebbi
He very much enjoys fine dining, different cuisines and spending time with me over good food. We saved fancy restaurants for special occasions, and those special occasions were more than just anniversary. We went to more casual but interesting places every few months as well. We saved up and went on one shabbos getaway program, did one of those tiny trips where they give you a good deal and talk to you about becoming hotel member shares, did some road trips to far out places. We would have loved to vacation more but priority was to save up for our house. He used his being hazmanim kollel check (it's an extra kollel during the time off) to buy his gadgets and things he wanted, that check didn't go towards savings or rent.
He did more sedarim than the norm to maximize his learning as well as bring in extra income. He truly was in kollel, we truly were in kollel, and at the same time we made it a priority to also enjoy and do things for each other that make each other happy. He is now Rebbi in morning, in kollel second seder, and night seder.
Not all kollel families are the same.
He and his learning are worth every single day of work and sacrifice.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 2:10 am

amother Lightblue wrote:

I seriously don't get why you attack me. Where do I state kollel people are forbidden a life style they can afford?