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-> Inquiries & Offers
-> Israel related Inquiries & Aliyah Questions
juggling
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 Sun, Jun 23 2024, 9:39 am
| amother Outerspace wrote: | No, the question was why doesn’t everyone go because of antisemitism.
And I explained why I don’t go. We are in galus anywhere. Antisemitism is a part of galus. |
That's a good answer. But I think it's pretty similar to what I was saying, just you deepened it by explaining the theology behind your position.
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Reality
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Sun, Jun 23 2024, 9:43 am
It is so obvious that although all these posters are amothers, it's the same posters as all the other threads we've recently had on this topic. Even using the insulting term proselytizing yet again, as if we are a bunch of Christian missionaries.
If the subject of aliyah is so upsetting to you, why do constantly spam these types of threads? Like I said in the other thread, some threads have nothing to do with my life. Therfore, I never post on them. If you can't or don't want to make aliyah, why get yourself all worked up? Just move on to the next thread.
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amother
Lightgray
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Sun, Jun 23 2024, 9:45 am
| Reality wrote: | It is so obvious that although all these posters are amothers, it's the same posters as all the other threads we've recently had on this topic. Even using the insulting term proselytizing yet again, as if we are a bunch of Christian missionaries.
If the subject of aliyah is so upsetting to you, why do constantly spam these types of threads? Like I said in the other thread, some threads have nothing to do with my life. Therfore, I never post on them. If you can't or don't want to make aliyah, why get yourself all worked up? Just move on to the next thread. |
If someone is so happy and content living in Israel, why make a thread asking why everyone else doesn’t pick up and move? The beginning of this thread was not “I don’t understand how anyone could move to Israel” it was “I don’t understand why everyone won’t?” That’s inviting non-Israeli imas to post reasons why they won’t so to say they shouldn’t respond ignores the point of the thread.
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Reality
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Sun, Jun 23 2024, 9:46 am
| amother Lightgray wrote: | | If someone is so happy and content living in Israel, why make a thread asking why everyone else doesn’t pick up and move? The beginning of this thread was not “I don’t understand how anyone could move to Israel” it was “I don’t understand why everyone won’t?” That’s inviting non-Israeli imas to post reasons why they won’t so to say they shouldn’t respond ignores the point of the thread. |
Tell me when I have ever started a thread like that?
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amother
Lightgray
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Sun, Jun 23 2024, 9:53 am
| Reality wrote: | | Tell me when I have ever started a thread like that? |
What? That’s how this thread started. The OP literally asked why people haven’t made Aliyah. People are responding.
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amother
Outerspace
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Sun, Jun 23 2024, 9:53 am
| Reality wrote: | It is so obvious that although all these posters are amothers, it's the same posters as all the other threads we've recently had on this topic. Even using the insulting term proselytizing yet again, as if we are a bunch of Christian missionaries.
If the subject of aliyah is so upsetting to you, why do constantly spam these types of threads? Like I said in the other thread, some threads have nothing to do with my life. Therfore, I never post on them. If you can't or don't want to make aliyah, why get yourself all worked up? Just move on to the next thread. |
Yes I am the same poster. Why shouldn’t I be? The same question was asked again.
The subject of Aliyah is not upsetting to me at all. In fact it fills me with warmth and love that so many people can live in our home land.
What is upsetting to me is that people think they know better than I do about how to be a proper Jew and how I should live my life and if I’m not living it that way I’m lazy and don’t like to be pushed out of my comfort zone.
Why should I move on to the next thread? She asked a question and I answered it.this has very much to do with my life. It’s a question that is relevant to me as she asked why people in the US don’t go and I’m in the US.
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amother
Cobalt
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Sun, Jun 23 2024, 9:55 am
You mean we get the same obnoxious answers like your mitzvos are worthless as well as your excuses.
I had forgotten what a bad feeling I had towards dati leumi after the last discussion.
Thanks (not) for reviving the distaste.
Save your protests, enough already.
I'm making Hashem happy living in America. Take it up with Him.
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amother
DarkGreen
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Sun, Jun 23 2024, 9:59 am
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In a strange way I happen to agree that many that make aliyah happen to be "missfits" in their community in the US. I live in Israel, I love Israel and would never live anywhere else. And yes I live in a mostly Anglo town. I see so so many people moving and struggling here. If you struggled financially in America chances are you'll struggle here, if you were socially awkward in chutz laretz, you'll be socially awkward here, if you had mental health struggles there, they will not be solved my moving in Israel (in most cases they'll be worse actually). And most importantly if your children are struggling there, they will most likely struggle here. Point being if you are running FROM something to live in the holy land its a risky move... the only way to make it successful is to be running TOWARDS. Towards the beauty, the kedusha, the higher level of spirituality, the better quality of life for your children. These are the people that make it successful.
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amother
Babypink
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Sun, Jun 23 2024, 10:12 am
| Reality wrote: | | Me with my chip on my shoulder? |
Yes I’m asking you sincerely.
Also, I think it may help if I rephrase, it’s not that I think that the American families who make Aliyah are necessarily unhealthy, what I mean is that almost certainly they don’t have as many factors holding them back as many other families have. For most happy healthy American families, the difficulties they would face by making Aliyah, meaning the things they would lose, outweigh their idealism. If they have strong family ties, a happy life, good finances, happy children, it’s very understandable for them not to want to uproot everything and go live in a new culture language etc with so many unknowns. People are naturally resistant to big changes that’s human nature and that’s why I called Aliyah “radical”.
Whereas the families who do make Aliyah often either come from very idealistic communities, of which the mainstream yeshivish community is not, OR they have less to lose. They don’t have particularly strong family ties, they’re facing certain struggles in the US, they already have Israeli family members, they are BTs and their personality types already embrace radical change, etc.
I’m not saying it’s GOOD that it’s this way, I’m not saying it SHOULD be this way that most happy settled American families would never make Aliyah, but at the end of the day it’s the way it IS.
Do you think you fall into what I described?
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Ema of 5
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Sun, Jun 23 2024, 10:19 am
| juggling wrote: | I'm aware of that. But that was the question under discussion. OP asked, if there is so much scary antisemitism in America why aren't all the American Jews fleeing to Israel. It's a perfectly valid answer to say, because I'm not afraid.
This wasn't a general discussion about the pros and cons of Aliyah. It was a very specific discussion about why people aren't making aliyah due to fear.
As I said, there are two answers to that question. Either you're not afraid in America, or you're more afraid in Israel. Either one is a valid answer to the question that was asked.
No one asked about family, community, etc. The specific question was about fear. |
This was the question
why wouldnt someone choose to move to israel. I dont specifically mean right this second with the was going on
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juggling
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Sun, Jun 23 2024, 10:34 am
| Ema of 5 wrote: | This was the question
why wouldnt someone choose to move to israel. I dont specifically mean right this second with the was going on |
You're right. But she wrote it in the context of "worldwide antisemitism is terrifying". I guess she conflated several issues, but I was only focusing on the antisemitism issue, in particular, since that was what prompted her question.
And I don't think it's fair to conflate the issues because, as you said, not everyone is motivated by fear.
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Reality
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Sun, Jun 23 2024, 10:57 am
| amother Babypink wrote: | Yes I’m asking you sincerely.
Also, I think it may help if I rephrase, it’s not that I think that the American families who make Aliyah are necessarily unhealthy, what I mean is that almost certainly they don’t have as many factors holding them back as many other families have. For most happy healthy American families, the difficulties they would face by making Aliyah, meaning the things they would lose, outweigh their idealism. If they have strong family ties, a happy life, good finances, happy children, it’s very understandable for them not to want to uproot everything and go live in a new culture language etc with so many unknowns. People are naturally resistant to big changes that’s human nature and that’s why I called Aliyah “radical”.
Whereas the families who do make Aliyah often either come from very idealistic communities, of which the mainstream yeshivish community is not, OR they have less to lose. They don’t have particularly strong family ties, they’re facing certain struggles in the US, they already have Israeli family members, they are BTs and their personality types already embrace radical change, etc.
I’m not saying it’s GOOD that it’s this way, I’m not saying it SHOULD be this way that most happy settled American families would never make Aliyah, but at the end of the day it’s the way it IS.
Do you think you fall into what I described? |
I literally answered this question already. I have a large, extended frum family in the tri-state area. We got together for chanukah, had extended family chol hamoed outings etc. We get a long with each other. I love my family and lived in walking distance to many of them.
My kids all had friends, were good students and happy and successful in the schools they went to.
What more can I say to "prove" we are not a weirdo dysfunctional family?
Our neighborhood was changing. Crime was going up in general. People were making a mass exodus out. Out to Lakewood, out to Monsey, out to the Five Towns, Ohio, Florida. We wanted to move but none of those places appealed to us. Only Israel.
Had we chosen to move to any other of the places I listed NOBODY would suspect we were dysfunctional or atypical with a "story". Well our hearts turned to Israel not Cleveland. It was the best decision we ever made. Our kids love it here. We live in a physically gorgeous place and we are a hop, skip and a jump from the holiest place on earth. You couldn't pay me any money in the world to go back.
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amother
Babypink
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Sun, Jun 23 2024, 11:54 am
| Reality wrote: | I literally answered this question already. I have a large, extended frum family in the tri-state area. We got together for chanukah, had extended family chol hamoed outings etc. We get a long with each other. I love my family and lived in walking distance to many of them.
My kids all had friends, were good students and happy and successful in the schools they went to.
What more can I say to "prove" we are not a weirdo dysfunctional family?
Our neighborhood was changing. Crime was going up in general. People were making a mass exodus out. Out to Lakewood, out to Monsey, out to the Five Towns, Ohio, Florida. We wanted to move but none of those places appealed to us. Only Israel.
Had we chosen to move to any other of the places I listed NOBODY would suspect we were dysfunctional or atypical with a "story". Well our hearts turned to Israel not Cleveland. It was the best decision we ever made. Our kids love it here. We live in a physically gorgeous place and we are a hop, skip and a jump from the holiest place on earth. You couldn't pay me any money in the world to go back. |
Tysm for giving me more info I must have missed it when you posted earlier. My main question now is, suppose your neighborhood had NOT been having a “mass exodus”, if you had not felt pressured to move due to crime etc, if your neighborhood was thriving and your friends were not moving? do you think there’s a good chance you ever would have made Aliyah? Or chances are you would you have happily stayed where you were?
In your case your impetus for making Aliyah may not have come from anything “atypical”, which for sure can be the case. But my point is that even in your case there was some sort of impetus (the need to move somewhere else) that was was NOT just your desire to move to Israel. Yes you chose israe because of your love and value for it but the original impetus was something else.
Most people do NOT move their family unless something non their life is missing, they don’t feel happy or settled. It’s human nature, when someone feels nothing is missing from their life, why would they go looking for something else?
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Reality
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Sun, Jun 23 2024, 12:15 pm
| amother Babypink wrote: | Tysm for giving me more info I must have missed it when you posted earlier. My main question now is, suppose your neighborhood had NOT been having a “mass exodus”, if you had not felt pressured to move due to crime etc, if your neighborhood was thriving and your friends were not moving? do you think there’s a good chance you ever would have made Aliyah? Or chances are you would you have happily stayed where you were?
In your case your impetus for making Aliyah may not have come from anything “atypical”, which for sure can be the case. But my point is that even in your case there was some sort of impetus (the need to move somewhere else) that was was NOT just your desire to move to Israel. Yes you chose israe because of your love and value for it but the original impetus was something else.
Most people do NOT move their family unless something non their life is missing, they don’t feel happy or settled. It’s human nature, when someone feels nothing is missing from their life, why would they go looking for something else? |
I don't know for sure. My DH had been talking about it for a few years already. My parents always wanted to make aliyah but my dad's job didn't transfer well. I grew up with the ideal but also knowing it has to work practically as well.
When my DH and I were able to work out a realistic plan we took the opportunity.
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amother
Babypink
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Sun, Jun 23 2024, 12:52 pm
| Reality wrote: | I don't know for sure. My DH had been talking about it for a few years already. My parents always wanted to make aliyah but my dad's job didn't transfer well. I grew up with the ideal but also knowing it has to work practically as well.
When my DH and I were able to work out a realistic plan we took the opportunity. |
So in your specific case, in addition to having the external impetus of needing to move, you were also raised with a strong idealism of making Aliyah, and with parents who spoke seriously about making plans to do so. A large part of the point I was making was that in most yeshivish homes, while Israel is always loved and looked at as our final home when mashiach comes, children are NOT typically exposed to ongoing idealism about Aliyah or to concrete plans about making Aliyah. Which is why in yeshivish circles it’s mostly the people who feel something “missing” who end up making Aliyah. Like I said, in other communities where this idealism is the norm, you have very typical families making Aliyah.
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amother
Banana
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Sun, Jun 23 2024, 12:53 pm
| Reality wrote: | I literally answered this question already. I have a large, extended frum family in the tri-state area. We got together for chanukah, had extended family chol hamoed outings etc. We get a long with each other. I love my family and lived in walking distance to many of them.
My kids all had friends, were good students and happy and successful in the schools they went to.
What more can I say to "prove" we are not a weirdo dysfunctional family?
Our neighborhood was changing. Crime was going up in general. People were making a mass exodus out. Out to Lakewood, out to Monsey, out to the Five Towns, Ohio, Florida. We wanted to move but none of those places appealed to us. Only Israel.
Had we chosen to move to any other of the places I listed NOBODY would suspect we were dysfunctional or atypical with a "story". Well our hearts turned to Israel not Cleveland. It was the best decision we ever made. Our kids love it here. We live in a physically gorgeous place and we are a hop, skip and a jump from the holiest place on earth. You couldn't pay me any money in the world to go back. |
YES YES YES AND YES
This is what I and think other posters are referring to...
Your community was gojng through something...people were moving and you were moving too
So that's a completely completely different story
Your also saying in next post you figured out a Parnassa
So lets say these 2 things were not there would you move?? I wonder
Happy were you are... no need to move ...and no Parnassa in Israel
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amother
Babypink
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Sun, Jun 23 2024, 12:56 pm
| amother Banana wrote: | YES YES YES AND YES
This is what I and think other posters are referring to...
Your community was gojng through something...people were moving and you were moving too
So that's a completely completely different story
Your also saying in next post you figured out a Parnassa
So lets say these 2 things were not there would you move?? I wonder
Happy were you are... no need to move ...and no Parnassa in Israel |
Yes exactly. In cultures like the in town yeshivish/JPF mainstream communities, where Aliyah idealism is not necessarily preached, Aliyah is almost always made as a result of an external motivator, NOT solely due to “love for Israel”. And sometimes this motivator can be neutral, like a neighborhood moving out as she said, but often this motivator is that something is missing in the family’s life, they are not happy or settled, they don’t have enough “going for them” in America to keep them here and about the challenges of Aliyah.
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amother
Blue
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Sun, Jun 23 2024, 1:37 pm
I don't havs the time to go through 14 pages, but in case no one else brought a source, I'll put this here regarding mitzvot outside EY.
It's from the OU website:
Rashi, citing the Sifrei,[1] explains these words as follows:
אף לאחר שתגלו היו מצויינים במצוות, הניחו תפילין עשו מזוזות, כדי שלא יהיו לכם חדשים כשתחזרו, וכן הוא אומר "הַצִּיבִי לָךְ צִיֻּנִים"
Even after you are exiled, retain your distinction through the mitzvos, put on tefillin and make mezuzahs,so that [the mitzvos] will not be new for you when you return [to the Land of Israel]; and similarly, it says “Make markers for yourself.”
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amother
Lightgray
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Sun, Jun 23 2024, 1:40 pm
| amother Blue wrote: | I don't havs the time to go through 14 pages, but in case no one else brought a source, I'll put this here regarding mitzvot outside EY.
It's from the OU website:
Rashi, citing the Sifrei,[1] explains these words as follows:
אף לאחר שתגלו היו מצויינים במצוות, הניחו תפילין עשו מזוזות, כדי שלא יהיו לכם חדשים כשתחזרו, וכן הוא אומר "הַצִּיבִי לָךְ צִיֻּנִים"
Even after you are exiled, retain your distinction through the mitzvos, put on tefillin and make mezuzahs,so that [the mitzvos] will not be new for you when you return [to the Land of Israel]; and similarly, it says “Make markers for yourself.” |
How one gets from this to "your mitzvos don't count when outside of Israel" is quite the leap...
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DrMom
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Sun, Jun 23 2024, 1:47 pm
It's genuinely weird and illogical to me that people who move to a different country are somehow assumed be to be misfits.
People relocate for many reasons (both positive and negative).
- My team at work (in E"Y) just hired someone from Massachusetts who is relocating to Israel. Would you assume this person is a misfit?
- What about someone who relocates to England or the US or Australia or Germany? Also misfits? Are only people who relocate to Israel misfits?
- Or is it that relocating for work okay, but relocating for religious reasons renders you a misfit?
Please explain.
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