I am very curious about not making aliyah

Reality

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 10:31 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

So tell me what typical yeshivish means. Maybe I have it all wrong.
I dont think I do. But again, just because you dont know any doesnt mean its not so.

Well I know typical yeshivish families from non-typical yeshivish families. That amother has no idea what she is talking about. Don't second guess yourself.

I know plenty who have moved here with kids. Not teenagers but kids in 4th or 5th grade. they are normal, well-adjusted, are not struggling financially, their family comes to visit them all the time etc.

Reality

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 10:36 am

amother Babypink wrote:

WOAH it seems like my comment on page 3 has garnered a lot of very strong defensive reactions. I’d appreciate if many of you stop choosing to twist my words.

I never said that people who make Aliyah are dysfunctional. I said that specifically in MY circles, JPF/yeshivish lite, most of the people (NOT ALL) who make Aliyah have “issues”. My exact words were “not bad people, just atypical”. I gave an example of some people COMING from dysfunctional families so they have no close family ties keeping them in the US (I never said that they themselves are dysfunctional). I also gave examples of people having issues with schools, finances etc and hoping for a fresh start.

The fact of the matter is that mainstream “in town jpf/yeshivish” culture does NOT focus very strongly on making Aliyah and the importance of making Aliyah. They focus on love for Israel, on the desire for us all to live in Israel when mashiach comes. But the community as a whole doesn’t place a super strong emphasis on making Aliyah NOW. Therefore, YES, like it or not, it is NOT the “typical” families who are making Aliyah.

I’m not sure how you can argue with the fact that uprooting one’s entire family, moving away from your schools, language, culture, family, home, jobs, etc is NOT a radical act. At the end of the day, in general, typical healthy happy settled people don’t often undertake such radical acts. It’s an extreme act to leave behind your entire life and start new. Of course it beautiful but how can you argue it’s not extreme.

In some more modern orthodox communities the focus on Aliyah is stronger and more positive, and yes from those circles you do have totally “typical” families making Aliyah. All the above does not apply to those communities.

Just digging yourself deeper.

Plenty of people who come from JPF/yeshivish lite backgrounds got their love of eretz yisrael from their homes. Stop calling moving to our homeland a radical act done by unhealthy people. Nobody is twisting your words. You literally have said it.

small bean

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 10:38 am

amother Babypink wrote:

That’s beautiful! Do you happen to know anything about their background in America?

I actually know some American yeshivish men who learned in a yeshiva in beitar who would love to make Aliyah to there. It seems like there is a specific yeshiva there that many want to go back to. Do you know what I’m talking about?

There is one in both A and B.

A is Friedman and I'm forgetting the name in B, but my brother in law was there before he went to work.

The families I know are lakewood type. Koller families.

Ema of 5

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 10:39 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

No, its not judgement, its what some have learned, that jews in chul is sort of like a staging ground for the real deal with hashem.
I know I learned that once, with a very zioni teacher. It’s not meant as judgement, at least I dont think it is. I think it’s the way things are learned, and differently, as we see.

It reeks of elitism unfortunately.

amother

Ballota

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 10:39 am

Ema of 5 wrote:

This is why people get defensive. Those are not the only two possibilities.
-it would be traumatic for my child/children
-parnasah will be a big struggle
-I have to take care of elderly/informed family members
-I have a child/children whose needs are being met very well right now
-I have a child who is struggling and was told that staying here is better for this child

There are lots of other reasons too. You, sitting over there behind your computer screen, don’t get to decide if someone reason is “good” or not.

But all of these reasons have to be tied to one of the 2 the previous poster mentioned. Bc if you would've been scared enough for your life, none of these would matter.

juggling

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 10:50 am

Ema of 5 wrote:

All of those reasons fall under the category of "I'm not afraid enough to upend my family.". I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear.

My point is, if someone's reason to make aliyah would be due to fear of antisemitism (the premise of this thread), then that fear would need to be strong enough that it outweighs all other considerations. I am not saying those considerations aren't important. The opposite - I'm saying for most of the people who have reasons they weren't making aliyah a year ago, those reasons are *still* strong enough to keep them from making Aliyah. Because this new wave of antisemitism isn't scaring them enough that nothing else matters.

I'm not in America, so I can't judge how it feels to be there. But from what I see, with all the talk of how bad the antisemitism is there, most of you aren't fearing for your lives. And therefore that fear is not pushing you to ignore all other concerns and make Aliyah.

Ema of 5

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 10:58 am

juggling wrote:

Fear doesn’t play a role in everyone’s thought process.

juggling

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 11:17 am

Ema of 5 wrote:

Fear doesn’t play a role in everyone’s thought process.

I'm aware of that. But that was the question under discussion. OP asked, if there is so much scary antisemitism in America why aren't all the American Jews fleeing to Israel. It's a perfectly valid answer to say, because I'm not afraid.

This wasn't a general discussion about the pros and cons of Aliyah. It was a very specific discussion about why people aren't making aliyah due to fear.

As I said, there are two answers to that question. Either you're not afraid in America, or you're more afraid in Israel. Either one is a valid answer to the question that was asked.

No one asked about family, community, etc. The specific question was about fear.

amother

Daphne

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 11:25 am

amother PlumPink wrote:

Such a beautiful post. Thank you for your chizuk! We are in the middle of planning aliyah.

Thanks! I hardly post but I get very defensive about Eretz Yisrael. It’s something you’ll experience too after you conquer this land. Not with guns but personally investing yourself in it. That’s why these threads end up like this, the land changes you.

It was actually my dh showing me the ramban where he wrote that mitzvot in chutz laaretz were only practice, I was so horrified that I was losing time in my life that I finally agreed to move. My dh grew up MO with aliyah as a value but moved to more of an agudah type. We actually davened at ‘the agudah.’ Everyone is different and they’re impacted differently by these words. For me, it really changed the course of my life.

My kids are so confident in their Torah and love Hashem and mitzvot. My 3 year old walks around chanting pasukim day and night. They all knew bircat hamazon so young. Aliyah was so hard that I don’t wish it on anyone, but after when Hashem reveals the strength and secrets of His land to you, you’ll never leave it. I pray you experience it quickly and the hard phase doesn’t linger.

juggling

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 11:28 am

amother Daphne wrote:

This is beautiful and positive and not judgemental!

amother

Babypink

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 11:44 am

Reality wrote:

I’m not sure how you can argue with my PERSONAL life experience. I said clearly that most (not all) of the families in my yeshivish in town circles that I know that made Aliyah fell into a few specific categories. Not necessarily BAD categories just not typical. And I think anyone who argues against that so strongly has a chip on their shoulder.

amother

Outerspace

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 12:17 pm

juggling wrote:

No, the question was why doesn’t everyone go because of antisemitism.

And I explained why I don’t go. We are in galus anywhere. Antisemitism is a part of galus.

amother

Babypink

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 12:23 pm

Reality wrote:

Would you like to tell us what your personal reasons were for making Aliyah?