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amother
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 Tue, Mar 26 2024, 12:33 am
| amother White wrote: | If it’s allowed according to Halacha for women to lein the Megillah, then what’s the problem?
If it’s not allowed then it’s not allowed.
It’s like wearing Tefiilin. It’s a mitzvah made for a man. A woman might decide she wants to do it, but it’s a man’s mitzvah. What’s the difference why she wants to do it or whether or not she has the time for it.
Imagine a man saying he wants to light candles before Shabbos. Maybe he wants to experience giving birth or nursing a baby. Why can’t a 3 year old girl have an upsherin or a bris ? They just can’t. |
The lighting candles example is a great example.
A man is allowed to light candles for shabbos. Sometimes, in fact, he must. But traditionally, it has always been the woman's role except under extenuating circumstances.
I would be disturbed if a group of men started pushing for a societal acceptance to be able to light candles instead of OR in addition to their wives.
Those men might tell me to mind my own business. That halacha allows it. That many holy and spiritual men who are single or away from home do this every week with the best intentions. That traditions can change. That some very learned Rabbis support the idea because otherwise the men in their community would feel disenfranchised. That they find lighting candles so beautiful and meaningful. That it helps their sons in some ways. That I'm anti-men for disparaging or not supporting their choices. That it empowers them.
Those reasons wouldn't be sufficient to convince me that a minhag of thousands of years should be changed. I would be especially cautious if this idea was also being pushed by Reform and other anti-frum groups.
Our minhagim and traditions are worth fighting for.
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tichellady
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Tue, Mar 26 2024, 1:28 am
| amother Electricblue wrote: | The lighting candles example is a great example.
A man is allowed to light candles for shabbos. Sometimes, in fact, he must. But traditionally, it has always been the woman's role except under extenuating circumstances.
I would be disturbed if a group of men started pushing for a societal acceptance to be able to light candles instead of OR in addition to their wives.
Those men might tell me to mind my own business. That halacha allows it. That many holy and spiritual men who are single or away from home do this every week with the best intentions. That traditions can change. That some very learned Rabbis support the idea because otherwise the men in their community would feel disenfranchised. That they find lighting candles so beautiful and meaningful. That it helps their sons in some ways. That I'm anti-men for disparaging or not supporting their choices. That it empowers them.
Those reasons wouldn't be sufficient to convince me that a minhag of thousands of years should be changed. I would be especially cautious if this idea was also being pushed by Reform and other anti-frum groups.
Our minhagim and traditions are worth fighting for. |
I wouldn’t call being a single man an extenuating circumstance and halavi the reform movement should be focusing on men lighting Shabbat candles. You seem to want to create issues where are there none.
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amother
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Tue, Mar 26 2024, 8:38 am
| amother Electricblue wrote: | Come on.
She was responding to someone who told her that the only reason she doesn't feel inferior is because she was conditioned by men and for men not to feel inferior.
That's not her saying that that other ways of living are not correct.
If you only have a problem with her response and don't have a problem with the person who told her that she is conditioned, then that says a lot about you and what you choose to focus on. |
Electricblue thanks for fighting my battles for me.
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amother
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Tue, Mar 26 2024, 9:53 am
| amother Electricblue wrote: | The lighting candles example is a great example.
A man is allowed to light candles for shabbos. Sometimes, in fact, he must. But traditionally, it has always been the woman's role except under extenuating circumstances.
I would be disturbed if a group of men started pushing for a societal acceptance to be able to light candles instead of OR in addition to their wives.
Those men might tell me to mind my own business. That halacha allows it. That many holy and spiritual men who are single or away from home do this every week with the best intentions. That traditions can change. That some very learned Rabbis support the idea because otherwise the men in their community would feel disenfranchised. That they find lighting candles so beautiful and meaningful. That it helps their sons in some ways. That I'm anti-men for disparaging or not supporting their choices. That it empowers them.
Those reasons wouldn't be sufficient to convince me that a minhag of thousands of years should be changed. I would be especially cautious if this idea was also being pushed by Reform and other anti-frum groups.
Our minhagim and traditions are worth fighting for. |
The OP is right though. The men have no interest in doing extra mitzvos. They would settle for doing nothing. While the women would take on more men’s responsibilities and then complain that they’re doing too much while the men are doing nothing. It is an interesting concept.
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chanatron1000
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Tue, Mar 26 2024, 10:03 am
| amother White wrote: | | The OP is right though. The men have no interest in doing extra mitzvos. They would settle for doing nothing. While the women would take on more men’s responsibilities and then complain that they’re doing too much while the men are doing nothing. It is an interesting concept. |
I think you might be conflating mitzvos with the division of household labor. It's not the same thing.
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shabbatiscoming
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Tue, Mar 26 2024, 11:00 am
| amother White wrote: | | The OP is right though. The men have no interest in doing extra mitzvos. They would settle for doing nothing. While the women would take on more men’s responsibilities and then complain that they’re doing too much while the men are doing nothing. It is an interesting concept. |
Do you actually know that the women whk WANT to lein, are complaining about doing too much? I dont. The women who I know who lein LOVE the experience. No complaining about things.
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amother
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Tue, Mar 26 2024, 11:18 am
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | | Do you actually know that the women whk WANT to lein, are complaining about doing too much? I dont. The women who I know who lein LOVE the experience. No complaining about things. |
In the right wing circles, women don’t stand up in front of a group of men. We can’t make a speech in front of men, we can’t read something in front of men, perform in front of men. We are very limited. I would love to speak at our family simchos and my husband hates doing it. Ironically, he forces himself to do it and I don’t get to. This is the reality of our culture. If women are halachically allowed to lein in front of a group of women , what’s wrong with it? You’re saying that you know women that lein.
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essie14
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Tue, Mar 26 2024, 11:40 am
| amother White wrote: | | In the right wing circles, women don’t stand up in front of a group of men. We can’t make a speech in front of men, we can’t read something in front of men, perform in front of men. We are very limited. I would love to speak at our family simchos and my husband hates doing it. Ironically, he forces himself to do it and I don’t get to. This is the reality of our culture. If women are halachically allowed to lein in front of a group of women , what’s wrong with it? You’re saying that you know women that lein. |
There is nothing halachically wrong with a woman speaking in front of men.
That's a social construct.
In non yeshivish circles, women speak at their family smachot. Women speak in shul in front of men.
Women lein megila for other women. How are the 2 things comparable? I don't understand your question. The women I know who lein only do it for other women. No men are involved.
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amother
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Tue, Mar 26 2024, 11:41 am
| tichellady wrote: | | I wouldn’t call being a single man an extenuating circumstance and halavi the reform movement should be focusing on men lighting Shabbat candles. You seem to want to create issues where are there none. |
I guess that's the underlying theological difference of opinions between us.
It seems that if you saw Reform rabbis advocating to change a minhag and have men light shabbos candles or something like that, you might think that it is wonderful for them. You also wouldn't be opposed to your community following suit if there were people who wanted it or felt empowered by the idea. After all, it doesn't break any halacha.
I, on the other hand, would not respect the reform changes, even if it seems nice. I would be skeptical and even oppose the idea in my own community because I think it should take a lot more to change a long standing minhag.
I guess there are deep theological and ethical differences between us and we will both think our way of thinking is correct.
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amother
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Tue, Mar 26 2024, 11:45 am
| amother Electricblue wrote: | I guess that's the underlying theological difference of opinions between us.
It seems that if you saw Reform rabbis advocating to change a minhag and have men light shabbos candles or something like that, you might think that it is wonderful for them. You also wouldn't be opposed to your community following suit if there were people who wanted it or felt empowered by the idea. After all, it doesn't break any halacha.
I, on the other hand, would not respect the reform changes, even if it seems nice. I would be skeptical and even oppose the idea in my own community because I think it should take a lot more to change a long standing minhag.
I guess there are deep theological and ethical differences between us and we will both think our way of thinking is correct. |
Why would you be skeptical of changes even if they are good?
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amother
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Tue, Mar 26 2024, 11:50 am
| essie14 wrote: | There is nothing halachically wrong with a woman speaking in front of men.
That's a social construct.
In non yeshivish circles, women speak at their family smachot. Women speak in shul in front of men.
Women lein megila for other women. How are the 2 things comparable? I don't understand your question. The women I know who lein only do it for other women. No men are involved. |
I agree with you. There’s nothing wrong with it. It’s nice that they can lein.
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shabbatiscoming
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Tue, Mar 26 2024, 11:58 am
| amother White wrote: | | In the right wing circles, women don’t stand up in front of a group of men. We can’t make a speech in front of men, we can’t read something in front of men, perform in front of men. We are very limited. I would love to speak at our family simchos and my husband hates doing it. Ironically, he forces himself to do it and I don’t get to. This is the reality of our culture. If women are halachically allowed to lein in front of a group of women , what’s wrong with it? You’re saying that you know women that lein. |
I dont understand how your reply is to my reply. It has nothing to do with mine.
What you are not allowed to do in your community is just that, something thst is not allowed in YOUR community. But it is not halachically assur.
So what does that have ANYTHING to do with women leining in front of ONLY other women?
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amother
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Tue, Mar 26 2024, 12:13 pm
| amother Bluebell wrote: | | Why would you be skeptical of changes even if they are good? |
I never said I'd be opposed to changes that are good. I said I'd be opposed to changes even if they seem nice.
Basically, I would need a lot more than "seeming nice" to change a long standing minhag.
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amother
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Tue, Mar 26 2024, 12:34 pm
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | I dont understand how your reply is to my reply. It has nothing to do with mine.
What you are not allowed to do in your community is just that, something thst is not allowed in YOUR community. But it is not halachically assur.
So what does that have ANYTHING to do with women leining in front of ONLY other women? |
I wasn’t trying to argue. There are people on here from all different communities. To someone from some communities, a woman leining is a foreign idea. It’s because they’re not used to women doing much of anything text related that takes place in front of a crowd. Maybe there is a good reason. I don’t know. My stance is that if it’s halachically permissible then there’s no issue. I would attend a women’s reading if there was one near me. The fact is that in some communities, women don’t get to do much and leining is only a drop in the bucket compared to the list of things men do that women don’t do. The question I would ask is whether or not it is the correct way. Is the Torah and Judaism in conflict with todays ideals or did we misconstrue the Torah and make it more male dominant than it needs to be?
To me, if something is allowed, it’s allowed and I really don’t see what the argument is. Maybe people just don’t realize it’s an option and it needs to be publicized more.
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amother
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Tue, Mar 26 2024, 12:38 pm
| amother Electricblue wrote: | I never said I'd be opposed to changes that are good. I said I'd be opposed to changes even if they seem nice.
Basically, I would need a lot more than "seeming nice" to change a long standing minhag. |
Is it being a mitzvah not good enough?
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shabbatiscoming
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Tue, Mar 26 2024, 12:46 pm
| amother White wrote: | I wasn’t trying to argue. There are people on here from all different communities. To someone from some communities, a woman leining is a foreign idea. It’s because they’re not used to women doing much of anything text related that takes place in front of a crowd. Maybe there is a good reason. I don’t know. My stance is that if it’s halachically permissible then there’s no issue. I would attend a women’s reading if there was one near me. The fact is that in some communities, women don’t get to do much and leining is only a drop in the bucket compared to the list of things men do that women don’t do. The question I would ask is whether or not it is the correct way. Is the Torah and Judaism in conflict with todays ideals or did we misconstrue the Torah and make it more male dominant than it needs to be?
To me, if something is allowed, it’s allowed and I really don’t see what the argument is. Maybe people just don’t realize it’s an option and it needs to be publicized more. |
But as you said, in your community women dont do or arent allowed to do certain things. So I will assume that such an idea as womrn leining the megila will not ever be talked snout as a possible thing.
In my dati leumi community, not all women go to a womens reading. Ive never. Its not my thing. BUT, its talked about and is seen as something that is a non issue.
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amother
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Tue, Mar 26 2024, 12:52 pm
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | But as you said, in your community women dont do or arent allowed to do certain things. So I will assume that such an idea as womrn leining the megila will not ever be talked snout as a possible thing.
In my dati leumi community, not all women go to a womens reading. Ive never. Its not my thing. BUT, its talked about and is seen as something that is a non issue. |
Yes. In my community unless you happen to be a woman with a strong desire to Lein the megilla, the thought would never even probably cross your mind. And if it did, you would assume women can’t do it or that it’s not proper for women to do it.
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amother
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Tue, Mar 26 2024, 1:21 pm
| amother Bluebell wrote: | | Ok. I believe that on Yom Kippur there should be alternating minyanim so both husband and wife can daven full tefilos while the other takes care of the kids. I believe shuls should be more accommodating to women. I believe that women should be encouraged to learn and pasken in areas that Halacha allows. Do you agree with all this? |
yk tefillah - a women is clearly exempt from time based mitzvos because of her privilege of dealing with children. a man is not. I would not take away anything from the chiyuv of a man on that day to have a woman daven. you can maybe convince me that woman should hire outside help to watch her kids so she can go to shul but not that a man should 'share the burden'.
I agree that shuls can be more accommodating to women I am just not sure what you are specifically thinking of.
I hear woman can be encouraged to learn torah.. but pasken? idk. I mean if you say halacha allows it then its not a bad thing but if my rabbanim are not advocating for this then I will follow them in this way.
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