Please explain Chardal hashkafa to me

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amother

↑ Zinnia

Tue, Nov 26 2024, 12:14 pm

amother Springgreen wrote:

Where does mizrachi fit into all of this?

What are some yeshivas that are considered chardal? Is Yeshivat Har Tzion considered Chardal?

No, I think yeshivat Har Etzion would be considered regular Dati Leumi, or Torani. They definitely don’t follow “charedi” Halacha and are pretty open minded in terms of tzniut, technology, boys/girls mingling. In general the hashkafa of gush Etzion (Efrat/Neve Daniel/Alon Shvut) is more Dati Leumi leaning than Chardal.
There are plenty of extremely halachic talmedei chachamim (and chachamot!!) in the Gush but I don’t think they consider themselves Charedi in terms of their hashkafa.

Chardal yeshivas tend to be Israeli, the two “classics” are Merkaz HaRav Kook in kiryat Moshe, Har Hamor in Har Choma. If you are American it’s very likely you never heard of them. There are probably many more yeshivot that fall under the chardal category but I can’t name them off of the top of my head…

amother

Chocolate

Tue, Nov 26 2024, 12:18 pm

amother Zinnia wrote:

Just pointing out that yeshivat har etzion is israeli as well.

amother

↑ Myrtle

Tue, Nov 26 2024, 12:31 pm

Chardal is a spectrum. Not everyone fully covers, not everyone does or doesn’t have internet, not everyone learns until married, etc.

For Americans, It comes down to a different style of dress, learning approach and attitude toward the state than we typically see in the USA.

OddoneOut1

Tue, Nov 26 2024, 1:27 pm

I'm yeshivish American living in Yerushalayim and LOVE the chardal way of dress, attitude towards Yiddishkeit- SO AUTHENTIC to what it means to be truly frum and serving Hashem. The chardal women are the ones fully fully dressed in clothes Americans would never wear- (beyone out of towny LOL

) but are as tznius as it gets
Hashkafically I can never due to our outlook on zionism:(
Oh well, I'm happy to be a part of a beautiful diversity in torah outlook

amother

↑ Ghostwhite

Tue, Nov 26 2024, 1:58 pm

What do all the american/anglos that make aliyah ( who mostly move to RBS) call themselves/ categorize/, associate with?

amother

Periwinkle

Tue, Nov 26 2024, 2:02 pm

amother Opal wrote:

I am torani, I live in a place that has a significant presence of torani and chardal (Kiryat Moshe in Jerusalem)

Torani and chardal are similar in terms of halachic observance. They are also both similar in halachic observance to chareidi. However, torani/chardal don't have a lot of the same surrounding chumrahs/minhagim/community-acceptable standards that exist in the chareidi world - for example in terms of dress or the chareidi shidduch system or not going to the army etc. But in terms of actual halachic standards, it is very similar. Torani/chardal both emphasize torah learning and army, but jobs are also an option. In both torani and chardal, women are fully tznius - hair fully covered, sleeves past the elbows, necklines above the collarbone, legs completely covered. Schools are completely separate (not just separate classes, but separate schools). Many separate boys and girls in gan already. Gan age girls often wear skirts already. Schools have extra hours of torah learning, some have less secular studies but that varies.

Some differences between torani and chardal: 1) Chardal is very closed to the outside world, quite similar to chareidi. Torani is more open to the outside world. Examples, torani - I have a computer with internet at home but we have a filter, my daughter only has a kosher dumb phone, I have a smart phone with whatsapp); chardal often don't have that. OR another example is my kids read secular books and appropriate clean kids movies (no TV though); chardal usually do not allow that. Chardal is more sheltered than torani, but the level of halachic observance is similar. 2) What boys do after highschool. In the torani world, boys usually go to hesder (combined 5 years of yeshiva plus a shortened army service in the middle). Some boys may go to yeshiva first for several years and then do army only later. In the chardal world, boys generally go to yeshiva (think Merkaz HaRav or Har Hamor) for several years and then do the army when they are older/more settled/married. 3) Chardal schools often have minimal secular studies, especially for boys but also sometimes for girls. Some have basically no English language. Torani schools can go either way. Many in both are talmud torahs for elementary schools, and high schools are yeshivas. For girls, the chardal schools have their own semi-private system for elementary and high school, for torani there are torani public religious schools and then torani high schools (ulpanot).

Chareidi lite or modern chareidi is a different sphere, it is those who want the charedi community and school system and dress etc but are more open to technology and are somewhat less into certain chumrahs/minhagim than the general chareidi community.

Basically, dati leumi and chareidi are different spectrums here with no overlap. Torani and chardal are the right wing end of the dati leumi specturm, while chareidi lite and modern chareidi are the left wing end of the chareidi spectrum.

Happy to answer more specific questions if you have.

I don't agree with your educational assumptions. The vast majority of ulpanot have a full bagruyot and secular studies. My dil teaches very high level English in a chardal ulpana.
I think the main difference is dress code and exposure to outside influences.
Also, chardal- who are makpid on everything else are just as makpid on kedushat eretz yisrael and our obligation to participate in a milchemet mitzva for eretz yisrael. Some of the beautiful soldiers who died who chardal

juggling

Tue, Nov 26 2024, 2:02 pm

amother Ghostwhite wrote:

What do all the american/anglos that make aliyah ( who mostly move to RBS) call themselves/ categorize/, associate with?

I don't think Americans who make Aliyah are a monolith. I know *lots* of Americans who've made Aliyah, and they settle in all over the hashkafic spectrum. Kind of like American Jews who don't make Aliyah 😉

↑ nylon

Tue, Nov 26 2024, 2:10 pm

Mizrachi nowadays primarily means middle Eastern Jews, but it was also the original dati-leumi group. It still exists. AMIT is the American women's organization, Bnei Akiva was established as their youth wing, and so on. Straightforward mainstream DL philosophy.

↑ Reality ↓

Tue, Nov 26 2024, 2:19 pm

Honestly, I don't really hear people calling themselves chardal either. It's called a Garrin Torani not a Garrin Chardali.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Tue, Nov 26 2024, 2:45 pm

Reality wrote:

Honestly, I don't really hear people calling themselves chardal either. It's called a Garrin Torani not a Garrin Chardali.

As another poster said chardal and torani are not exactly the same.
Ill tell you that a garin torani doesnt have to do with being a certain type of dati. Its just a group of frum couples stsrting a community or strengthening a community.
And there are definitely people who call themselves chardal Smile

amother

↑ Opal ↓

Tue, Nov 26 2024, 4:07 pm

amother Periwinkle wrote:

I am torani and have daughters in the school system. It is true that most ulpanot do bagruyot and secular studies. But there are a whole bunch of highschools for girls which cater to the more chardal population (and sometimes get the torani girls as well) that are not part of the mamad system. They are semi-private, or independent, or part of the chareidi system even if they aren't chareidi schools. I was talking to friends in Jerusalem who are dati leumi and they didn't even know these schools existed even though we live in the same city. Some of them have full bagrut, though not all the girls do them. But these schools are definitely are a small minority of the school options out there.

amother

Tulip

Tue, Nov 26 2024, 4:56 pm

out of curiosity -- I have friends with daughters in a variety of ulpanot -- what would be some considered chardal?

I definitely know some that are more left/modern/open (including some girls' schools that I think would call themselves a tichon dati rather than an ulpana) and others I would defnitely call torani, but any specific ones you would call chardal?

amother

↑ Opal

Tue, Nov 26 2024, 5:20 pm

amother Tulip wrote:

Ateret Rachel and Tehila (not Evelina Tehila, that's a different one) are two chardal ulpanot that are popular where I live, and are popular with the Merkaz Harav and Har Hamor crowds, though they also get from other chardal or strongly torani crowds. These are not part of the mamlachti dati school system. Tehila has bagruyot, and I think Ateret Rachel does, but I'm not positive.

We are torani and were told a few years back that our oldest daughter would not get into one because we we don't really fit the hashkafa (I.e., my husband isn't learning in Har Hamor full time) - I'm not upset though, because they are right that it wouldn't be a good fit, she would be different from the other girls and the school would be much more closed/sheltered than she is used to.

someone ↓

Wed, Nov 27 2024, 1:39 am

amother Opal wrote:

I think all ulpanot do bagruyot, but Ateret Rachel and others (maybe Tehila as well, I don't know) do the chareidi syllabus

amother

Cream ↓

Wed, Nov 27 2024, 4:46 am

I agree with a lot of what has been said here. I live in a place with a lot of torani/chardal families - officially we are called a torani yishuv but within that title there is a nice amount a givun. We have families where the husbands are avreichim/rabanim and ones that work in regular jobs. There are women who only wear long flowy skirts and cover every single hair on their head. And then there are women who leave out a little around their hairline in the front (very few sheitels, mostly the anglos!) and wear "shorter" skirts (but still cover the knees). A lot of the men and boys have long payot too. You have the ones who went to mercaz and har hamor and then the ones who went to hesder yeshivot like kerem byavne and others. The local boys school that most people send to is a mamad Talmud torah. So it follows everything it needs to be a public school (get funding) but we need to pay extra for the extra hours and extra days (it goes rosh chodesh elul until Tisha bav and not Sept 1 - June 30). I don't know of anyone with a tv but most adults have smartphones but not all. A lot of the teenagers don't have smartphones but the ones that do have the "kosher" ones. But the whole community is built and focused on Torah. And eretz yisrael with almost every family having husband and/or sons in the army.

amother

Coffee

Wed, Nov 27 2024, 5:11 am

amother Cream wrote:

Please tell me where you live.
This is the kind of place we're looking for.
Thank you

amother

↑ Wheat

Wed, Nov 27 2024, 6:18 am

Please help me understand.
If a family is RWMO in the US, would they likely transition to Chardal in Israel?

As a stereotypic example- an American boy who learns in Kerem B'Yavne for a year or two, goes to YU, marries a Stern girl, works in computers, prioritizes limud Torah, careful with halacha and is close with his rebbeim.

Do they typically exchange the velvet yarmulka and black hat for a kipa sruga? What about pronunciation (e.g. CHU-mish vs choo-MASH)?

What differences would they encounter in practice and culture? What are communities (both culturally Israeli and Anglo) where this type of family tends to settle? Is the generation gap between these American RWMO olim parents and their kids any different than other olim?

amother

Mayflower

Wed, Nov 27 2024, 7:10 am

amother Opal wrote:

If these the girls chardal high schools in Jerusalem, what are the boys chardal high schools that are the equivalent? Do the boys learn secular studies?

amother

↑ Cream ↓

Wed, Nov 27 2024, 7:46 am

amother Coffee wrote:

Please tell me where you live.
This is the kind of place we're looking for.
Thank you

I'd rather not say exactly 🙈
But look into yishuvim like mitzpe yericho, Kochav Yaakov, neria, nof ayalon, mevo choron

amother

Cognac

Wed, Nov 27 2024, 7:52 am

amother Mayflower wrote:

If these the girls chardal high schools in Jerusalem, what are the boys chardal high schools that are the equivalent? Do the boys learn secular studies?

ישל'צ

Yeshiva Tichoni, attached to Mercaz HaRav. As far as I know, they do bagruyiot.

There are others, but that's the one I'm most familiar with.

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