Distortions in the name of chinuch

Motek ↓

Sun, Nov 13 2005, 6:02 am

Numerous morahs teach the five afflictions on Yom Kippur as:

1) no eating
2) no drinking
3) no leather shoes
4) no washing
5) no anointing

but this is incorrect because in halacha, eating and drinking are one category and the fifth affliction is actually: no marital relations!

obviously, morahs don't want to teach that and so they conveniently split eating and drinking into two categories!

How did you learn or how do you teach the five afflictions on Yom Kippur? What did your children learn this year? And do you have any more examples of these distortions?

Rochel Leah

Sun, Nov 13 2005, 6:18 am

I rmember learning the things that you cannot do on yom kippur but without the "no relations" part. but I don't think the teacher misrepresented the idea and said and there are 5 things we don't do on yom kippur, she just listed the things we don't do without including the last one. drinkeing and eating were together as one thing.

I don't think it is a distortion, the children will eventualy learn all five when they get older and will understand their teachers reasoning from when they were younger

I don't think my parents would have been happy me coming home in 2nd grade asking questions. when I was older obviuosly we learnt the five..

when you are younger alot of things are censored, like lots daughters, tamar and yehuda..we never learn those parts in chumash when we were in elementry school, but in high school when we learn't that part in chumash again we covered it then.

↑ Motek ↓

Sun, Nov 13 2005, 6:26 am

if teachers think they can't or shouldn't teach something, that's one thing

what I'm objecting to is distortions

many children are definitely taught that there are FIVE inuyim and although yes, they recite five different things, this is a distortion because in halacha it says there are five inuyim and lists eating and drinking as one!

I'm not saying that children should learn that marital relations is forbidden on Yom Kippur. I'm saying - don't tell them there are five inuyim and then tell them what halacha designates as four.

sounds like hairsplitting? suppose so ... but that's how the halacha is worded

Tefila ↓

Sun, Nov 13 2005, 7:30 am

My kids when young learned "no sleeping in the same bed"

Last edited by Tefila on Tue, Aug 05 2008, 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

BrachaVHatzlocha ↓

Sun, Nov 13 2005, 7:36 am

never heard that one, freilich!!
yes, they're taught that we can't do 5 thigns....I think it's ok b/c I don't think it's quite a distortion.

↑ Tefila ↓

Sun, Nov 13 2005, 8:44 am

Well thats what their teacher taught them Confused

Anyways am I totaly off base as a teacher of 3/4 yr olds to not teach about akiedas yitzchok how far do I go. can I focus on other parts of the parsha etc.
Same goes for karbanos and the 10th plague. Also I teach by means of pictures which I draw in clear child like way?

avigayil

Sun, Nov 13 2005, 8:50 am

I honestly do not think these teachers are misrepresenting anything Motek.
I mean, how you you teach your kids about these things as small children?
Don't you think it MIGHT be a bit much too soon?

sarahd ↓

Sun, Nov 13 2005, 9:10 am

What's a teacher supposed to teach - there are four inuyim? there are five inuyim, but we're only going to learn four? the first isn't correct either and the second would be inadvisable.

TzenaRena ↓

Sun, Nov 13 2005, 1:05 pm

Quote:

Anyways am I totaly off base as a teacher of 3/4 yr olds to not teach about akiedas yitzchok how far do I go. can I focus on other parts of the parsha etc.

You can surely tell it in a way that three year olds can understand. I'm very uneasy about this. There was an "abridged" Chumash that was published by some not altogether frum society. Torah leaders, if I'm not mistaken particularly the Rebbeim were against it!

Quote:

Also, read the story of "Shimon HaKofer" in the Sefer HaToldos Admor Hazaken starts on pg.164, the part of his Yechidus with the Alter Rebbe begins on pg.175, last paragraph . (English version: Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi by Rabbi Nissan Mindel, starting page 124-story of his Yechidus on page 138.)

This Shimon who was a Maskil, was a spy for the Maskilim, with the intention of finding out as much as he could about the society of the Chassidim and their Rebbe, in order to infiltrate and lure the youth to the Haskalah. He posed as a Chassid, and gained entry to Yechidus with the Alter Rebbe.

Quote:

"As I entered the Rebbe's room, I was overcome with an overpowering sense of awe. His impressive face, penetrating eyes, and strong voice as he said to me, "what is your wish?" left me speechless for a moment.
However, soon I was able to recover my composure, and I replied, "I am a Melamed of small children in my town. I teach them Chumash with emphasis on the principles and laws of dikduk. My fellow teachers oppose my method and criticize me for teaching them also the Hebrew language. In defense of my position I cited the grammatical punctiliousness of the Rebbe's new edition of the Siddur. Nevertheless my colleagues are not convinced. It would be of general benefit if I could obtain a letter to commend the use of the grammatical method, to train the children to read correctly, as well as to teach them the TNaCH."

For a few minutes the Rebbe seemed engrossed in concentrated thought. Then he raised his head, opened his eyes, and said "True, the prayers, particularly the Shema and the Shemone-esrei, should be recited carefully and correctly.
However, the method of interpreting the Torah mainly on the basis of grammar and linguistics could come too dangerously close to misinterpretation."( in original Hebrew: In the Mesivta d'Rakia (Heavenly Academy) there are special chambers (heicholos) for each study, and between the two chambers, the chamber of the study of dikduk, and the chamber of the study of grammar is the chamber of M'galei Panim b'Torah Shelo Kehalacha.

In the study that the person was involved with that day, when his neshomo ascends at night to draw life from above - the neshomo ascends to that heichal at night, and sometimes, it happens that it strays and instead of the heichal of the study of dikduk, or the study of language, it enters the chamber of the misinterpeters of Torah (m'galei ponim batorah shelo kahalacha, and therefore one needs to be wary in the study of the wisdom of grammar and subject of language."

When he finished speaking, he again rested his head in concentration, then lifted it, and opened his eyes, and asked me, How do you explain to your pupils the verse 'And Yitzchak trembled very exceedingly?'

I answered 'I explain the verse according to the first explanation of Rashi, that is in the sense of astonishment.'

'And why don't you explain it to them according to the explanation of Rashi, in the name of the Medrash, that the Gehinnom was opened up before him from underneath' asked the Alter Rebbe?

My opinion - I answered- ... I think that the tender minds of the children should not be crammed with Aggadic material in general, particularly with such a horrifying subject as Gehinnom and the like, which are beyond a child's imagination. Moreover, the child would find it hard to understand how the great and fiery Gehennom which is blazing more than 5,555 years, would enter into the Yitzchak's room, and Esav and his father would remain alive, and not even their clothes were singed!"

"But where did the Medrash get this idea?'" he aasked me again "that he saw the Gehinnom open for him from beneath him?", to which I made no reply - as understood, I couldn't answer; was it then the first of the nonsensical sayings and dictums of the Medrash and Talmud?

When he saw that I remained silent, he said: " When Esav entered to Yitzchak('s room) and Yitzchok asked him: 'Who are you', and Esav answered his father 'I am your firstborn son Esav', and it was false, since hadn't he already sold the birthright to Yaakov in a completely legal sale with all ramifications, and Yitzchok knew this -

'and Yitzchok trembled exceedingly' because of the falsehood that Esav lied, and violated the laws of the Torah; from this he trembled exceedingly, since he (Esav) is a liar therefore the Gehennom is opened for him from beneath him."

When he finished speaking, he again rested on his fore-arms, and then lifted his head, and opened his eyes, and he took one candle from the two that stood on the table,- for this was his custom, when he received people even during the day that there were two candles burning and a Chumash and Zohar on the table, - and he lifted the candle and looked at me and said:

When a man comes from Vilna and says he comes from Zamut; when he leads Jewish children to the Molech of the Haskalah and says that he is a Melamed -- the Gehennom opens before him. How many souls have you destroyed? Yet you obstinately persist in your rebelliousness! you have been caught up in apostasy and all who come there will not return...

I hastily withdrew from the Rebbe's room, the "Upper Gan Eden," derermined to retun at once to my lodgings and to leave town forthwith. I realized that I had been caught, and I did not cherish the idea of being stretched out on a table, with my pants down, taking a lashing like a truant schoolboy-- aas has been done to some of my fellow-emissaries who had been discovered in certain Chasidic strongholds.

However as I passed the small synagogue, the "Lower Gan Eden" as they called it, I was surrounded by some five or six young men, who dragged me into the synagogue. You can imagine my fright! To my great relief, however, I soon realized that all they wanted was to do the "Yechidus Dance" with me! Needless to say, I did not feel like dancing. I was badly shaken by my encounter with the Rebbe, and I had not fully recovered from my illness.......

[/b]

Leaving out parts of the Torah, because they are too "graphic" or "scary" or "difficult to understand", is reminiscent of the above story, which illustrates what such an idea could be associated with.

Definitely the Torah wants us to tell little children about Gan Eden and the reverse - Gehinnom. It is one of the 13 Ikrim - fundamental beliefs. . The Alter Rebbe saw with Ruach haKodesh who Shimon really was, and how he uncovered his deception. And the fact that the Maskil Shimon said that the thought of Gehinom is too scary for the tender children.... gave him away.

If there is something we find difficult to teach, it doesn't mean that the children shouldn't learn it, just that we should find the best way to teach it.

Last edited by TzenaRena on Sun, Nov 13 2005, 1:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ Motek ↓

Sun, Nov 13 2005, 1:16 pm

avigayil wrote:

I mean, how you you teach your kids about these things as small children?
Don't you think it MIGHT be a bit much too soon?

of course, which is why I wrote:

Quote:

I'm not saying that children should learn that marital relations is forbidden on Yom Kippur. I'm saying - don't tell them there are five inuyim and then tell them what halacha designates as four.

sarahd - how should the teacher word it? How about:

"These are things we are not allowed to do on Yom Kippur ..."

↑ sarahd

Sun, Nov 13 2005, 1:17 pm

Motek,

that's actually a very good idea. I wonder why all teachers don't do that.

↑ Motek ↓

Sun, Nov 13 2005, 1:25 pm

cause they didn't ask me Wink

↑ TzenaRena ↓

Sun, Nov 13 2005, 1:32 pm

delete

Last edited by TzenaRena on Sun, Nov 13 2005, 1:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ BrachaVHatzlocha

Sun, Nov 13 2005, 1:37 pm

I mentioned to my husband about the above first post. He agrees it's wrong to say there are 5 things and count eating & drinking as 2 separate. He thinks he saw it written somewhere. If I find a source, I will expand, if possible.
But you're right...we should just say - here are some of the things we don't do on Yom kIppur. Cuz honestly, we're not listing all anyhow - all the issurim of Shabbos apply, too.

tzivi ↓

Sun, Nov 13 2005, 1:42 pm

I don't recall any of my kids saying that they learnt that there were five things. They just said what they had learnt, without counting them.

raizy ↓

Sun, Nov 13 2005, 1:59 pm

my kids did learn in school there are 5 thinks and they split up eating and drinking.. so who cares about that . they will learn when they are older the real 5. come on the world is not going to end if they dont really know the five things...

and this u call distortotion?? dont you have more worries on your head then this......

↑ Tefila ↓

Sun, Nov 13 2005, 2:13 pm

I'll tell you why I am asking you see the first two yrs I taught this age group well the following week I see these two boys acting out akeidas yitzchok shock

he had brought a real chopping knife no idea how he smuiggled it in his back pack w/hout mothers knowledge from his home shock

B"h I saw it and caught it Exclamation

to which he replyed morah we would've stopped as soon as Hashem said No. Crying

Also I had a child come to school saying that Hashem is going to do makas bechoras on me b/c I am a first born and my daddy isn't Jewish Confused

So ofcourse I sat there explaining it was only then and in the time of the eygptians, but for the rest of the week he kept talking about being scared Crying

So what I have been doing now is skimming thru but not focusing on it. And the Principal has been fine, but a couple of parents want me to spend time on the details and I just wanted to know how wrong I was if I concentrated on the other parts of the parsha and just said you will understand more about e.g. Karbonos when you are older rather then going into details now and their minds exxagerating it big time. Confused

Sara yehudis Thanks but I would still like to hear more about this

↑ tzivi

Sun, Nov 13 2005, 2:14 pm

I'll tell you why I am asking you see the first two yrs 13yrs ago I taught this age group well the following week I see these two boys acting out akeidas yitzchok he had brought a real chopping knife from his home Shocked B"h I saw it and caught it Exclamation to which he replyed morah we would've stopped as soon as Hashem said No. Crying or Very sad

OMG! How old were these boys???? shock

↑ Tefila ↓

Sun, Nov 13 2005, 2:16 pm

4yrs old

↑ Motek ↓

Sun, Nov 13 2005, 3:41 pm

now I'm wondering where it says "five things" because I checked Kitzur S.A., Rambam, and Mishna Yuma and they doesn't use that phrase! Confused