Distortions in the name of chinuch

↑ TzenaRena

Sun, Nov 13 2005, 6:22 pm

The source for the 5 inuyim is the Gemara:

Quote:

(Yoma 73,b)Ach Be'asor....V'enisem: Mishna: yom hakippurim asur b'achilo ubeshesiyo, ub'rechitza, ub'sicho, ub'ne'ilas hasandal, ub'tashmish hamitah.....etc The Mishna enumerates all 5 einuyim, Rashi says that the Gemara explains that all these are called enui, and about Yom Kippur it says 5 inuiyim (in the Torah). there are 5, rather than 6 because shesiyo, drinking is included in eating.

Gemara:(Yoma 76,a)Hani chameshes(these 5) einuyim k'neged mi?( corresponding to what?) Omar Rav Chisda : k'neged 5 einuyin she'beTorah: Ube'asor(bamidbar29.7) v'ach bee'asor , shabbas shabboson(Vayikra16:31) v'shabbas Shabboson (Vayikrah23:32) v'hayesoh lochem (Vayikra 16,29) etc. (in each one of these pesukim, it is stated [I]te'anu v'einisem (you shall afflict, and thou shalt afflict) (Yoma 73,b 76a)

The Gemara continues with the Chachomim discussing this very point that shesiyo is bichlal achilo, (drinking is included in eating) and bringing proofs from different pesukim to that because the mishna enumerates what would appear to be six, and in the Torah it says v'einiesem etc. 5 times!

Quote:

Baal HaTurim : Ach Be'Asar laChodesh HaShvii hazeh (VaYikra 23:27) Ach miutah hu shemechaper lashovim, v'einoi mechaper l'sheeinan shovim. v'chamisha einuyim heim, achilo, ushesiyo urechitzo, v'sicho, vn'eilas hasandal, v'tashmish hamitah. k'neged h"p (5 p'eomim) nefesh dksivei b'parsha ukneged 5 sheimos shyesh l'nefesh v'heh t'vilos l'cohen gadol.

trans.: Only, on the 10th of this seventh month(Emor 23:27) Ach , only - is to exclude, for it (Yom Kippur) atones for those who return(do Teshuvah), and it doesn't atone for those who don't return (do Teshuva). And there are five afflictions: Eating and drinking and washing and annointing and wearing leather shoes and relations. corresponding to five times that it says nefesh in the parsha, and corresponding to the five names of the nefesh(soul), and the five immersions of the Kohen Gadol.

chen

Mon, Nov 14 2005, 6:58 am

Am I the only one asking how did a 4-yr-old get hold of a chopping knife?

↑ Tefila

Mon, Nov 14 2005, 1:50 pm

A very good question to which I asked the mortified mummy to which she answered, she left it on her counter but didn't dream he would touch it, never mind bring it to school shock

↑ Motek ↓

Tue, Nov 15 2005, 2:08 pm

thanks sarayehudis - I discovered that it's a Gemara after I had logged off for the night (and the following day) but you wrote it out nicely and I wouldn't have Smile

Last edited by Motek on Tue, Nov 15 2005, 6:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ raizy

Tue, Nov 15 2005, 6:42 pm

my kids also act out the akudis ussually it is my baby who is yitzchak thank god they havent thought of using a real knife!! shock

↑ Motek ↓

Thu, Jan 26 2006, 6:57 am

Tefila wrote:

Anyways am I totaly off base as a teacher of 3/4 yr olds to not teach about akiedas yitzchok how far do I go. can I focus on other parts of the parsha etc.
Same goes for karbanos and the 10th plague. Also I teach by means of pictures which I draw in clear child like way?

Quote:

As is obvious also from the well-known story regarding the chinuch of the daughters of the Rebbe, my father-in-law (the 6th Lub. Rebbe) that their melamed wanted to "dress" everything in sechel, in order not to frighten them with stories of miracles and mesirus nefesh, and the Rebbe said, on the contrary - a Jewish child - the beginning of his education ought to be davka with stories of mesirus nefesh and this specifically is what is accepted by a Jewish child.

(sicha Yisro 5749, Sefer Ha'Sichos 5749 p. 234, bold not in the original)

Quote:

As is known, the instruction from the Rebbe, my father-in-law, that with children you should also teach them the akeida and the like (unlike those who err who say it frightens the child) because a Jewish child by nature can (understand and) feel the inyan of mesirus nefesh. On the contrary, for him [the child] it is more revealed than for an adult.

(sicha Chayei Sarah 5749 Sefer ha'Sichos p. 46)

shalhevet ↓

Sat, Jan 28 2006, 4:06 pm

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Last edited by shalhevet on Mon, Feb 20 2017, 2:49 am; edited 1 time in total

stem

Sat, Jan 28 2006, 4:51 pm

For an eleven year old girl, I would say that there are certain times that a woman is not tahor till she goes to the mikva. during that time it's called nidda. No need to elaborate on the ramifications of being nidda, how one becomes nidda etc. But I see nothing wrong is teaching this bit of halacha to an 11 yr. old girl.

hisorerus

Sat, Jan 28 2006, 6:02 pm

Great way of putting it, Stem.

↑ Motek ↓

Sun, Jan 29 2006, 6:17 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

For example Yehuda married Tamar, Potiphar's wife wanted to marry Yosef so he ran away because she was already married etc. Would you call these distortions?

no, these are not distortions

Crayon210 ↓

Sun, Jan 29 2006, 6:35 pm

Regarding the 5 inuyim on Y"K--I always thought that was a very convenient setup!

I always learned the stories in Chumash classes, though I found out later that most of my friends in other schools did not. Of course, we learned it with some adaptations...one thing I did resent was learning Amnon and Tamar in seventh grade, with the words "lay down next to her" when all of us knew enough to understand it was a rape. I think the teachers need to determine the background of the individual classes they teach, so they don't come across as ninnies.

chavamom ↓

Thu, Sep 20 2007, 4:57 pm

I remembered this thread from last year and actually asked my dd in 5th grade what they teach are the 5 afflictions. She told me that they tell them:
1) no eating or drinking
2) no leather shoes
3) no washing
4) no anointing
5) no cohabitation for married people

So no, no distortions here.

↑ Motek ↓

Sun, Sep 23 2007, 2:44 pm

I'm so curious. What does a 5th grader think cohabitation means?

↑ chavamom ↓

Sun, Sep 23 2007, 4:12 pm

Motek wrote:

I'm so curious. What does a 5th grader think cohabitation means?

I'll have to ask her LOL

↑ Motek ↓

Tue, Aug 05 2008, 12:19 pm

shalhevet wrote:

Motek wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

my 14 year old doesn't know how babies are made or that someone unmarried can get pregnant.

Has she learned the story of Tamar and Yehuda and other references in Torah about zenus?

They learn these stories by translating שכב as 'married' instead of 'slept with'. It all makes perfect sense if you say Yehudah married Tamar when she was assur to him, because Shelah had to perform yibum.

I wonder how boys can be taught the 3 ways a man can be koneh (acquire) a wife without explaining marital intimacy when one of the 3 ways is marital intimacy. Boys, even as young as 10, when learning Mishnayos, come across many halachos that have to do with subjects you wouldn't want to explain.

Back to Yehuda-Tamar, if he married her, why did he want to kill her when she was discovered to be pregnant? If she was supposed to wait for Shela, why did he marry her? And why didn't he know who she was?

cassandra ↓

Tue, Aug 05 2008, 12:26 pm

I remember learning the inyan of Yehuda and Tamar in 4th grade chumash and not understanding a word of it since it was taught in such a convoluted way. The other chumash groups skipped it, but we were "advanced" LOL

↑ cassandra ↓

Tue, Aug 05 2008, 12:27 pm

And about the 5 inuyim-- I did learn eating and drinking separately and it bothered me to no end that halacha would have to create two separate issurim for eating and drinking. I didn't know what the fifth one was until 9th grade (well after I was aware of the ins and outs of the birds and the bees)

↑ chavamom

Tue, Aug 05 2008, 12:41 pm

chavamom wrote:

Motek wrote:

I'm so curious. What does a 5th grader think cohabitation means?

I'll have to ask her LOL

Forgot this one - cohabitation per dd: "sleeping in the same bed".

↑ shalhevet

Tue, Aug 05 2008, 12:41 pm

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Last edited by shalhevet on Mon, Feb 20 2017, 2:51 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ cassandra

Tue, Aug 05 2008, 12:47 pm

shalhevet wrote:

I dunno, but when I read Chumash I don't picture Avram and Sarai going round choosing a hall, band and flowers and checking out the caterer's kashrus.)

I would have assumed that's how they taught it in BY these days.