Is there or isn't there a shortage of moros??? + update :)

amother

DarkYellow

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 11:28 am

amother [ Daisy ] wrote:

Anecdotally seasoned teachers are leaving the field in droves. The seminary girls that signed up for idealistic reasons can’t make ends meet on 22k a year. Even if there were a ready supply of inexperienced 19 year olds, if many jump ship after 3 to 4 years that itself is a crisis situation.

Rav Elya Brudny is telling boys he can’t recommend going out with a teachers because the finances just won’t work for a kollel family.

Houston we have a problem.

I can't believe that this is what Hashem wants from us.
For a man to choose a wife based on her future earning potential..

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 11:55 am

tigerwife wrote:

It seems to me that the crisis is more about experienced teachers leaving the field because of the measly pay than fresh seminary grads wanting a “choshuv” limudai kodesh job to stick onto their resume.

Look, I can't speak for everyone obviously, but my daughter and her friends wanted to teach kodesh because they felt passionately about spending their working hours giving over yiddishkeit to children. I would be highly skeptical that most girls who want to teach kodesh want to do so because they want a choshuv job to stick on their resume, especially because many, many boys are nowadays a lot more hesitant to go out with teachers, no matter WHAT you're teaching. My daughter actually spoke to our rav to make sure that it wasn't a lack of hishtadlus in shidduchim to become a teacher because she knew that it might NEGATIVELY affect her resume...

amother

Winterberry

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 12:04 pm

Most of the older/experienced elementary school teachers that I know have husband's with good jobs or are from wealthy families. (Monsey, non chassidish)
The young girls here get assistant morah jobs for a few years while they're in school in the evenings studying for a more lucrative profession.

No one thinks going into teaching is realistic way to support a family. Even my DD who is not looking for a "learning boy" would never consider teaching. She's in college now and can make more doing part time freelancing in her field (it's a tech field) while she's in school than any teacher makes. She understands that, realistically, it takes two incomes to support a frum family these days unless one person is bringing in over 200k themselves (and even then the second partner would probably have to take a part time job when the kids are all in school brcause tuitions $$$$$$)

amother

Clear

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 12:05 pm

I live in Lakewood and I don't believe there is any shortage on limudai kodesh teachers. English teachers yes. Because after the teacher starts their own family its hard to stay in teaching playgroup finish at 2:30-3, without transportation and teachers are not done until 4-4:15.

Most of my daughters limudai kodesh teachers are teaching for years. I don't want a flood of seminary teachers. Because they lack the experience that a teacher who is married with children have. She could be divorce but I think teachers that have their own kids is the decision factor in my opinion. Some of there English teachers are more fun but alot of weaknesses.
Controlling classroom. They are either way to strict that the kids can't move or to weak l. They don't have the natural flow of letting kids live without everything being perfectly under control in the classroom.
They don't understand kids health needs, emotional needs, family situations. Don't take a child's lunch period away they need the nutrients. Dont put restrictions for going to the bathroom for an elementary age kid. sick kid that the teacher didn't realize wasn't feeling well. And told her she must play the exciting jumping review game because its fun or she will need an assignment. A teacher who doesn't realize what a house looks like before a yomtov. No homework. But a major project that parents need to be involved in.
Are not alwaysis young teacher capable about subjects in life like moshiach, death, mitzvah and punishments, home life.
They need a good principal or mentor on top of them and not every school has one.
My child school thinks the single teacher they hired is amazing. She was one of their very smart alumina. And gave a beutiful model lesson.

In my child's school many teachers are related to each other most are amazing teachers but the one or two that are not will never get fired. And if your daughter would apply for a job at my kids school she is one of 200 applicants and obviously the chumash teachers daughter get the first interview for the English writing position.

amother

↑ Red

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 12:21 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

My daughter knows girls in a number of the NY/NJ cities mentioned already in this thread as being cities that are desperate for teachers, and all her friends told her that tons of girls are competing for the same jobs, just like in our city. But how can both be true? Based on what I'm also reading on this thread, maybe the answer is that there ARE enough applicants for these positions, but not enough QUALIFIED applicants, and that is why the schools can't find teachers? Must be the case otherwise there's no way to reconcile the two.

Yes that's what it is

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 12:29 pm

amother [ Clear ] wrote:

Not trying to nitpick here, but this really rubbed me the wrong way. It is one thing to say that you don't want an inexperienced girl as your daughter's teacher. It is quite another to say that you don't want someone to teach your daughter unless she is married with children. My daughter's favorite teacher in high school was an older single, and in both elementary and high school she had plenty of married-with-children teachers who had zero social-emotional understanding or the additional warmth and care that those with their own children supposedly have toward other people's children.

It is the most painful thing in the world to tell a person who through no fault of her own has not yet found the right one or has not yet had a child, that until she has a wig and a stroller she may not teach the children of those who are lucky enough to have both. Please explain your intention.

amother

Hyssop

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 12:33 pm

Having recently been a seminary graduate in search of a teaching job, I have no sympathy for the schools complaining there are no teachers. I live in Lakewood. Each year there are hundreds of seminary graduates begging to get teaching jobs for both hebrew and english. It is nearly impossible to find a job. Most girls go out of town or become substitutes. I can tell you that most of these girls would make amazing teachers. Just look at how many go out of town and are star moros in those schools.

Of course the schools want experienced teachers (and are struggling to hold on to their experienced teachers because of the low salaries).
But it feels like a knife in the gut to hear schools complain that seminary girls lack idealism and don't want to go into teaching. Hello? Look at the piles of teaching applications on your desk or at the lines around the block for an interview.

amother

Mint ↓

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 1:05 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Lol the toughest "battle axe" teachers I had were the married ones with large families. I guess because they were used to being so no nonsense and strict with their own kids it carried over to the classroom. They had no pity even if you were desperate to use the bathroom or came back a minute late from recess.
The kindest, most compassionate ones were by far the singles ones or newly married with just a baby or two, ironically....

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 1:06 pm

amother [ Topaz ] wrote:

Schools don't want to hire sem graduates because they are 'unexperienced' but how can anyone get experience in the field if they aren't allowed thru the door?
The experienced teachers get burnt out because they are not being paid so well so some of them leave and then the schools complain that that they have no teachers...
The schools are doing it to themselves.

Right, so maybe raising morahs' salaries will help solve the problem. But some seminary graduates definitely are getting teaching jobs, it's just that most of them aren't because (A) there are so many fresh-out-of-seminary applicants for each open position, and (B) - at least according to the members of this thread Smile

- the schools are reluctant to hire newbies.

farm

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 1:17 pm

I think the schools shy away from the seminary graduates who apply for the teaching jobs because

1. Lack of experience
2. Hard to tell if they are in for the long haul vs filling in the gap while they get their degree for their ‘real job’
3. Liable to leave from one day to the next should they get engaged and want to move to EY/Lakewood/wherever chassan is learning

There is a serious shortage of qualified, experienced applicants who can be considered a worthwhile investment for the school to train and mentor.
I really don’t think a stack of 250 identical seminary graduates looking to teach limudei kodesh in any in town bais yaakov that will have them means these schools are not facing tremendous difficulty filing openings with qualified reliable teachers. And the limidei chol positions are in much worse shape since even the less than ideal seminary graduates don’t want those jobs.

amother

↑ Mint ↓

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 1:23 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I don't think it was any easier to survive with a father learning full time and the mother teaching, in any era, in any decade, in any year. Teachers never got paid living wages in all my years (and I'm not young).

It seems that nowadays girls know they have other options, or perhaps girls today are just more practical and less willing to live on emunah.

Agree 100%.
I'm from Baltimore where it was always acceptable to go to college even back before there were frum options. But almost none of my peers I knew from camp or sem went to college. They either got a teaching job or did a short bookkeeping or office job type of training. Some did eventually go to college but not till after they married!

But now, with various frum programs + online options even girls from very frum circles have way more options. They can still get a job in a frum company or school but in a different position and with better pay. I would say things have started changing in this direction around 20 years ago. Maybe a bit more. Maalot programs started in the late 90s. And now Touro is an acceptable option. I remember when people looked down on girls going to Touro....

amother

↑ Topaz

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 1:49 pm

amother [ Strawberry ] wrote:

Get experience by subbing or being an assistant for a year. This is pretty standard IME.

No school where I live will take you on as a long term sub straight out of seminary. A girl at that age and stage need a steady job not a job that comes up last minute for a day or two. What is she supposed to do the other days.

Being an assistant sounds like a good idea but in practicality means cutting papers making copies and checking that HW was signed. Its not fair to make a smart girl looking for stimulation do this for five years so that she can one day get a teaching job.

Look I was in this position recently and could not get a school to look at me. I've moved on and now that I'm married they asked if I'm interested but the answer is no. I moved on settled myself in a different field and use my passion for teaching on my own kids.

I was just as smart five years ago but then you wouldnt look at me...

amother

↑ Strawberry ↓

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 2:08 pm

amother [ Topaz ] wrote:

I’m in Lakewood and my daughters school has a number of fresh grads that sub every day in different classrooms or if no job available do office work. She had one of these the entire last week as her teacher was out. One year she had an excellent assistant, the next year this assistant was her sub when her teacher went on maternity , and now she teaches full time

amother

↑ Mint ↓

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 2:36 pm

amother [ Strawberry ] wrote:

There's no guarantee of how long it will take to get a contract regular position though. And a girl of 20 or so is probably already dating and tbh a job of "classroom assistant" isn't going to cut it unless she is dating guys with very good jobs. Unlikely at her age and stage in life. Understandably, girls can't "afford" to wait on that. Unless they are doing it as a side job until they finish college and get their "real" job.

pause ↓

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 3:15 pm

I definitely think the decreased stigma attached to good frum girls going to college is responsible for the lack of teachers. Teaching used to be the default job of girls who want to avoid the pitfalls of an office (way before all girls offices were common) and the dangers of college. If you were a good girl, you wanted to teach. Nowadays, you don't need to teach and you can still be a great girl. No one is looking down at you for wanting to do something "more" so they went for it. In fact, you're better because you can support a DH in kollel whereas you cannot do that when you teach.

And now it's 15-20 years later and we're blaming the low salaries. It's actually the combination of a number of factors that led us here.