I killed my wife | Imamother

amother

↑ Linen ↓

Thu, Dec 23 2021, 8:33 pm

small bean wrote:

For real? She died in her 50's and they blamed it on her childhood vaccines?

Maybe she ate to much from aluminum? Maybe it was her shampoo?

Aluminum is not healthy but how can you compare?
Some people are afraid of vaccines because all the chemicals sitting in the body can actually cause cancer c'v maybe like actually eating all the aluminum pans yourself and drinking the shampoos for dessert

Cancer is so prevalent almost like a plague and it started not long after vaccinating became mainstream.

I do take vaccines by the way. Just not all of them

amother

↑ Seablue ↓

Thu, Dec 23 2021, 8:49 pm

amother [ Linen ] wrote:

Cancer was quite prevalent before vaccines too. The cancers often went unidentified (e.g. She died of a "stomach disease"- they didn't have technology years ago to know it was pancreatic cancer).

My great-grandfather died in the early 1950's from colon cancer in Israel. I don't think he received vaccines in his childhood years.

↑ small bean

Thu, Dec 23 2021, 8:53 pm

amother [ Linen ] wrote:

Cancer is not new. Im not debating vaccines, more feeling guilty for death at 50

amother

↑ Honeydew ↓

Thu, Dec 23 2021, 9:00 pm

amother [ Seablue ] wrote:

I'm curious, If something comes up, say cancer ch''v, do you say "I do what I feel is best and that is Hishtadlus"? I'm asking earnestly. I've always thought that normal hishtadlus is to go to your doctor, ask him for his professional opinion (a doctor is a shliach from Hashem) and follow his advice without too many cheshbonos. Even if the cancer treatment is new, you would perhaps get a second opinion from another doctor, but ultimately hishtadlus is to follow the doctors' advice. Is it hishtadlus to make medical decisions on your own, without a doctor's input?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

In any situation, you need to do what you feel is the best approach after weighing all the pros and cons.

I have a relative who was diagnosed with cancer l"a and they had a big decision about whether to treat the person in their current location, or to travel to a more famous hospital far away. They weighed the pros and cons and decided to stay where they were. That was what they felt was normal hishtadlus for that particular situation.

In this story, the husband felt that the best thing was to no vaccinate. He didn't not let her due to being abusive or wanting her to suffer. He genuinely felt that was best for her. Whether we agree with that cheshbon or not is not relevant. There is valid reason on both sides of the equation. The point is that if you do what you feel is best, then that is considered normal hishtadlus. Remember, hishtadlus is not what is actually helping. It's just our token. So if after normal hishtadlus she was nifteres, it's very clear that there is no fault here. It was her time to leave this world.

amother

Canary ↓

Thu, Dec 23 2021, 9:02 pm

amother [ Seablue ] wrote:

I’m curious, if your doctor tells you that you have an ear infection and says you need surgery, do you listen? Or do you ask questions and seek another opinion if his diagnosis doesn’t sit right?

If a doctor says you’re fine when you feel anything but, do you go home blithely or keep looking for a diagnosis?

Hishtadlus isn’t the same for everyone. Some people have plenty of bitachon and can just go with what the doctor says. Others need to invest more thought and effort into the process.

Similar to parnasa. Some people just need to hang out a shingle and money comes pouring in. Others need a decade of college and 60 hour workweeks.

If you can just follow doctor’s orders, good for you. I wish I had your bitachon. I need to research, advocate, and discuss before I make a medical decision with potentially serious consequences either way.

amother

↑ Honeydew ↓

Thu, Dec 23 2021, 9:07 pm

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

You're not wrong. You're right. We are commanded by Hashem to take care of the bodies He gave us to clothe our souls with in this world. We're supposed to try to watch our health. Rabbis in our generation accept the word of doctors and consult with medical experts regarding health matters. In cases where there are differing medical opinions, Rabbis follow the majority of the best experts that can be found, not just with regard to vaccines but in all matters of health.
If a person smoked against his doctor's advice and died of a disease caused by cigarettes destroying his lungs of course we believe in Hashem and know the person died by the hand of Hashem, but we can also realize what the person did was wrong. It's not for us to judge or blame, we don't know the struggles of the smoker, but we also aren't supposed to whistle past the graveyard and pretend smoking is okay.
People are good at manipulating information to their own benefit and the anti vaxxers are no exception. They'll try to convince you that you're lacking in Emunah if you take care of yourself. Lucky us, we have doctors and rabbis to consult with and we don't have to fall victim to brainwashing by cults. We all know where that road takes us.

See, this is exactly where you are very wrong.
The people who are not vaccinating (most of whom are not anti-vaxxers, just anti covid vax) don't think you're lacking in Emunah if you take care of yourself.
They believe that the covid vaccine has a lot of risks and that people are taking better care of themselves by not vaccinating. Especially for people who have natural immunity and also since covid has become a lot more mild in many communities.

amother

↑ Seablue ↓

Thu, Dec 23 2021, 9:18 pm

amother [ Honeydew ] wrote:

In your relatives' case, they were still following accepted medical advice. They chose to follow the local doctor instead of the further one. What you're advocating is completely disregarding medical advice, and "do what you feel is best". I'm hesitant to believe that that is considered doing hishtadlus.

amother

↑ Seablue ↓

Thu, Dec 23 2021, 9:28 pm

amother [ Canary ] wrote:

Did you read my post? I clearly mentioned that when a medical issue comes up, it makes sense to perhaps get a second medical opinion and I believe that is still considered normal hishtadlus. But where would it end for you? If you asked one, two, three doctors, and they advised you to follow a specific medical course of treatment, isn't that enough hishtadlus? Would you say, nopes, I need to do a lot more research, because following doctors is for silly people, who "blindly" follow orders?

amother

↑ Honeydew

Thu, Dec 23 2021, 9:28 pm

amother [ Seablue ] wrote:

This is a brand new vaccine that hasn't been around long enough to know the risks of it, and there seems to be good reason not to take it. There have been doctors who have been advising against it, see this link for example: https://www.austintexas.gov/ed.....64941
Many many people agree with low risk people not taking the vaccine. It's not as black and white as the media portrays it to be.

amother

↑ Canary ↓

Thu, Dec 23 2021, 9:29 pm

amother [ Seablue ] wrote:

Are you aware that there is a wealth of medical advice that DOES advocate not vaccinating? Perhaps not the doctors you generally follow, but I will assure you that my medical approach is consistent.

amother

↑ Canary

Thu, Dec 23 2021, 9:34 pm

amother [ Seablue ] wrote:

Did you read my post? I clearly mentioned that when a medical issue comes up, it often makes sense to get a second medical opinion and I believe that is still considered normal hishtadlus. But where would it end for you? If you asked one, two, three doctors, and they advised you to follow a specific medical course, isn't that enough hishtadlus? Would you say, nopes, I need to do a lot more research, because following doctors is for silly people, who "blindly" follow orders?

If I was unhappy with it, I would continue discussing it until either I or they were convinced. I still would not just obey (assuming this is not an emergent matter which requires immediate decisions).

I don't think that following doctors is silly, or blind obedience. It demonstrates a level of bitachon I don't have. Or maybe you have a doctor that has earned your trust over time and you no longer feel it necessary to investigate further.

Either way, I'm happy for you, but that's not the way it is for me.

amother

↑ Seablue

Thu, Dec 23 2021, 9:40 pm

amother [ Canary ] wrote:

Are you aware that there is a wealth of medical advice that DOES advocate not vaccinating? Perhaps not the doctors you generally follow, but I will assure you that my medical approach is consistent.

Where are you getting this "wealth of advice" from? The internet? Do you think that if you walked into a reputable medical center in your area, the top doctors there would agree with you? I still think it's hishtadlus to follow the best doctors available to you, and so far I'm not convinced otherwise. I need to sign off now... maybe we'll talk tomorrow.

Zehava

Thu, Dec 23 2021, 9:57 pm

amother [ Seablue ] wrote:

Well actually I did that and yes. Was told not to vaccinate.

↑ LovesHashem

Fri, Dec 24 2021, 1:38 am

This has been studied a lot but a lot of the things that cause cancer are in your hair, makeup, and other products. They are in aluminum pans, and in fast food too.

We are exposed to so much chemicals and junk since we starting manufacturing and needing so much stuff.

I watched a documentary about the lies of the recycling industry and they spoke about some of the product factories and the fumes that have caused cancer to people who live near them.

Some of these chemicals have been dumped into the water in some places, wasn't there an issue with that many years ago by Tom's River? There was an abnormal amount of people with cancer there.

Laiya

Fri, Dec 24 2021, 7:19 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/2043343/I-killed-my-wife-hagaon-harav-badani-tells-over-a-tragic-story.html

HaGaon HaRav Shimon Badani, the Zakein Moetzet Chachmei HaTorah, spoke at a Rabbinical conference at Sheba Hospital in Tel HaShomer last week and told over a tragic story.

HaRav Badani spoke out against anti-vaxxers, saying that there’s a passuk in the Torah: ‘ונשמרתם מאוד לנפשותיכם’. “Whoever doesn’t fulfill this – it’s very chamur. The vaccines caused mortality to significantly decrease. There are many who tell all types of stories but everyone needs to know that it’s forbidden to refrain from [getting vaccinated]. Whoever refrains is trampling himself and the halacha.”

“An incident happened that a woman told her husband that she wants to get vaccinated. He told her stories and convinced her not to get vaccinated. She ended up contracting COVID and passing away. Afterward, the husband walked the streets saying: ‘I killed my wife’ – in those words.”

“Let’s not be caught in such a situation,” HaRav Badani stressed. “Who is meshuga to want to reach such a situation?”

Why wasn't she given early, effective therapeutics? It's unconscionable.

↑ SixOfWands

Fri, Dec 24 2021, 11:42 am

Laiya wrote:

Why wasn't she given early, effective therapeutics? It's unconscionable.

Which "effective therapeutics" do you claim are more effective than vaccination?

Monoclonal antibodies are about 70% effective in preventing hospitalization of high risk unvaccinated people. That's great, and should be used. But is also means it doeesn't work for a whole lot of people.

https://www.uab.edu/news/healt.....sons.

Meaning she may well have received treatment, and still died.

Vaccines are more than 90% effective at preventing hospitalization.

amother

↑ Linen ↓

Fri, Dec 24 2021, 12:59 pm

small bean wrote:

For real? She died in her 50's and they blamed it on her childhood vaccines?

Maybe she ate to much from aluminum? Maybe it was her shampoo?

That's what many say about those who got the covid vaccine and died shortly after.
Oh he always had high blood pressure.... his heart attack happened because of that, and would have happened regardless of the vaccine.
Oh she would have died anyways, she was obviously meant to die,
It was all unrelated.

As long as nobody can prove anything it's just your words against mine, and vice versa.

Hashem_Yaazor ↓

Fri, Dec 24 2021, 1:44 pm

Honestly, someone who died in their 50s had many toxic exposures and while vaccinating might have been a contributing factor, someone of that age didn't actually have nearly as many vaccines as someone younger so it's hard to really attribute it easily. But people grieving are entitled to express their pain.

amother

↑ Linen ↓

Fri, Dec 24 2021, 1:48 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

The chemicals from the vaccines sit in the body for decades, and they're not harmless.
It's not vegetables y'know.
And the cancer also could have been growing for many years until it was detected.