Designer buys: 'Don't judge me!' and 'respect me!'

amother

↑ Vanilla

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 10:55 am

keym wrote:

I can acknowledge it.

That doesn't mean it's easy to have your bar mitzvah the same Shabbos as "son of McRichy" and know that your classmates are going to show up to his Kiddush and not come to yours because he's having meatboards, herring, cholent, hot appetizers, and you're having cake.

Or to be the girl who suffers socially and desperately wants to go to camp with her friends, but she's stuck babysitting her siblings that summer, all alone or lonely.

Or being the 3 year old who brings wafers and lollies in his birthday pekela to be told by a kid in the class "these are stupid. Yesterday Moishy brought sour something and prizes and fancy cupcakes.

The solution to this is not for the entire community to live on the same high standards. We need to learn to live within our means without being embarrassed about it and we need to raise our kids to accept everyone for who they are. We also need to learn and teach our kids not to boast and be show offs and not to שטעך יענעמס אויגן.
If kids get the attitude from their parents that everything needs to be the best and top, they're never going to learn to be happy with what they have because the parents aren't happy with what they have.

↑ Lovable ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 10:55 am

DVOM wrote:

You're certainly not obligated to agree. You're not even obligated to respond! This conversation is entirely voluntary. Whatever!!!

I'm not saying that judging people is 'ok'. I'm saying that it is human, natural, instinctive. I'm saying that we all use it. Can you really say you never make judgments based on appearances? Can you really say that you never use your appearance to influence the judgments you know others will make about you? We form judgments all day long. We purposely pick and choose what we show others about ourselves in order to influence what beliefs they will form about us. This is a fact of life. I believe that you ignore this fact at your own risk. Still, I agree that as Jews we have a responsibility to rise above instict, to try to judge others favorably. I certainly don't claim to be perfect in this area. Are you?

Regarding disrespect 'for whatever reason': Is there no behavior that you don't respect? Are there no actions you find reprehensible? Do you respect acting based on peer pressure? What do you find respectable about it? Or do you simply believe that it doesn't exist? That everyone buying a bugaboo, even those who can't afford it, are making those purchases out of a genuine love for the product?

I hear your point. Loud and clear.
And as I mentioned in a different post, I am not perfect, none of us are. But I try
And again with the bugaboo. You can never know why or how or for what reason someone is strolling the streets with a Bugaboo. In which case, just let it go

↑ keym ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 10:56 am

Also, interesting halachic facts.
There are Rabbanim who hold that flaunting something that something can't afford is an issur- learned from the fact that Penina was punished.

And there's lots of precedent for Rabbanim limiting extravagance
The basic pine coffin was instituted after a problem arose because families were too ashamed to bury their dead at all if they couldn't afford expensive coffins.

And Ashkenazim instituted a standard kesuba amount and text so as not to embarrass a girl who brought in less or her chassan who couldn't afford to pay a large kesuba.

↑ keym

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 10:58 am

amother [ Vanilla ] wrote:

You're right.
This is why communities have instituted standards that everyone lives on the same "lower" standard.
Takana weddings
Bar Mitzva standards.

↑ Lovable

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 10:59 am

amother [ Vanilla ] wrote:

Totally. I remember once when the ice cream truck came to our bungalow colony. My mother decided to treat us to some ice cream, something that we didnt always get when the truck came. As Im licking my cone, my friend comes over holding a popsicle which he apparently got from his mother from the bungalow freezer, and says 'My mother said the ice cream from this truck is horrible. My ices is much better'
I still remember the story because I was confused by His statement. But now when I think of it, I understand that this way of chinuch is corrupt & totally misses the point

↑ imaima ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 11:18 am

DVOM wrote:

Ahhh...debate! Intelligent conversation! Love it!

What do I sound jealous of?

I'll readily admit there are some clubs I'd love entry to, but I don't have the currency, and I am jealous. I don't think this club I'd one of them.

Please do elaborate!

Jealous of not having money.
When I had no money, I also had elaborate ways to be "above them", prove to myself how I am superior but broke etc. When I started earning more and could afford luxury, none of these thoughts even entered my mind.

There are tons of assumptions here that are not necessarily true:

1. The message people want to be sending. Not everything is supposed to have a message. Or the message is not what you think it is. Or people just go with the flow without a particular intention.

How does going with the flow induce external judgment is not clear to me. You are right DVOM that some people priotirize luxury purchases over other expenses. Why are others invited to judge them??

2. "Respect me" means respect our choices. Everyone makes their own financial choices. Some people invest in clothes, others in vacations, or food, or cars. Respect these choices! Don't judge.

A $1000 stroller has a legitimately better quality than a Graco. It rolls better and is much more comfy for the child. I would recommend anyone who has the money to invest in it since it is great for both parents and children.

3. I don't get why education and money are in opposition here. Why is it either or. They very often go hand in hand together. People need education to get money. Either formal or not. Knowing what brands are good quality is also valuable. Knowing that a good stroller won't ruin your back is valuable. Knowing what brands produce clothes made of natural fibre that are well cut is valuable. Educated people won't settle for less to prove to a poorer person that they not "one of the Joneses".

You cannot respect people for their intellect because they have designer stuff - why not? Surely many of these people have either education or character traits or work ethic that enabled them to acquire that money! Surely these qualities are worthy of respect.
And if you are not capable of that, you should at least try and be DLKZ about how these people got to have these things. For all you know, that could be a gift or people are really better off than you think and donate double as much to charity.

I agree that being frugal is another club where members are just as stuck up as those in the other clubs (don't get me started on people with yichus club). I have a friend who is so toxic in her frugality, it is so cringy. You can't mention that you bought something for a child - she will right away mention how she got all the kids stuff as hand-me-downs so she didn't spend a penny. It is in the tone of voice.

amother

DarkGray ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 11:24 am

DVOM wrote:

Regarding 'don't judge me!':
My point is (I was getting to it!!): You want others to judge you. Saying 'don't judge me based on my stuff' is kinda funny. You bought your stuff so that others can make judgment calls about you based on that very same stuff. You want to show that you belong, that you're in the know, that you've got the right stuff and are therefore the right type of person, whatever that is in your community and culture.

So its ok to judge a person based on their clothing? If I were to judge how frum a person is based on their clothing you'd be ok with it?

GreenEyes26 ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 11:37 am

amother [ DarkGray ] wrote:

So its ok to judge a person based on their clothing? If I were to judge how frum a person is based on their clothing you'd be ok with it?

But in these communities, they DO judge how frum you are based on how you’re dressed. Women are literally told that if they don’t wear a certain hair covering or denier of tights their kids will be kicked out of school.

In these communities, it seems like externals matter more than anything else. Not only will families be looked down upon if they don’t dress “right”, repercussions for dressing in a certain way can be as grave as total expulsion from the group. It should never, ever be a good enough reason to punish someone because they have a too-long Shaitel or wear jeans instead of black pants. It shouldn’t be ok. But somehow, entire communities are built around conformity. Dress being one part of it.

↑ imaima ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 11:39 am

amother [ Vanilla ] wrote:

And deep down I think we all know that there's a problem in our communities and we need to start to acknowledge it instead of denying it and calling others jealous. The first step to change is to acknowledge that there's a problem.

It is an educational problem. Children are raised in bubbles with a very narrow view of "norm". Especially the girls. I call it "noble ignorance". You get side-eyed if you know something about the outisde world, e.g. what kind of traditions people in other countries have. Obviously it's only everything Jewish that matters.

Everything out of the box is forbidden. The choice of hobbies and sports is limited. There is no way to express oneself but through dressing up your babies, of which you have a ton.

We have seen it on the thread about a mom who dressed her 3 y.o. for a family wedding.

These issues are community-made, there is no point blaming people of being a product of the system.

amother

↑ DarkGray ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 11:42 am

GreenEyes26 wrote:

So you are saying no one should ever get judged. So then why is it yes ok to say if you wear these stuff you are asking to be judged? Whatever you wear represents you. Either its ok to judge all or no one at all.

mommy3b2c

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 11:43 am

amother [ Vanilla ] wrote:

This. As simple as this. You can’t change other people, you can only change yourselves.

The answer is never to make rules and takanos. There is no way to enforce them and if doesn’t solve the root of the problem. The only answer is to work on your middos. Rich people need to work on not showing off and making others feel comfortable. Poor people need to work on not feeling the need to pretend they’re rich. The way to change the world is to change yourself. That’s all anyone can do.

amother

↑ DarkGray ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 11:45 am

imaima wrote:

I find the way you phrase the bolded demeaning.

amother

Eggplant ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 12:00 pm

I didnt read all the comments, but I read some of the other thread.
Its actually perfect. those with designer clothes feel good about themselves, "exclusivity"as you call it. and those who are pissed and jealous, can be self righteious and feel holier than. Win-win.

Honesty, I spent most of my life buying Zara, h&m, etc. and I do have some designer clothes now. But I rarely talk about where I shop. and I rarely talk about where others shop. I dont like the conversation about clothes at all. So you guys seem to be the one who are obsessed. Have fun up there.

amother

↑ DarkGray ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 12:27 pm

imaima wrote:

Everything out of the box is forbidden. The choice of hobbies and sports is limited. There is no way to express oneself but through dressing up your babies, of which you have a ton.

amother [ DarkGray ] wrote:

I find the way you phrase the bolded demeaning.

imaima wrote:

It's generic you.

amother [ DarkGray ] wrote:

Well, I dont think you were referring to me personally Confused

. You were referring to a specific community. Nobody ever has 'tons' of kids.

imaima wrote:

It is the same community DVOM refers to in her OP...

The original bolded comment is demeaning. It doesnt matter who you were referring to. Its still not nicely said.