Designer buys: 'Don't judge me!' and 'respect me!'

Mommyg8

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 12:43 pm

hoff123 wrote:

I’m just wondering why do we care???? Why on earth do we have pages and pages of ppl writing abt what other ppl wear and buy?!? What is wrong with ppl???? If u can’t look past externals then we have a problem! If someone wants to spend $2000 on a shoe then good for her and if someone spends $2 on a shoe good g from her too! why does it affect us? It looks like all these ‘frugal ruchniyus’ ppl feel good putting down the ‘brand name buyers’. If ur that ruchniyusdig then stop with the Loshon hara and chill out! LET EVERYONE BUY WHATEVER THEY WANT!

Ok, so I'll explain why we care.

Personally, I think I'm not wired the right way. I don't really get why everyone should fit in and I never had the desire to fit in myself. I drive the wrong car, wear the wrong clothes, wear the wrong headgear....

But I do see that for many, it is very, very important to fit in. I don't judge people who are wired differently than me, but I do see a problem when "fitting in" means buying designer clothing and other things that are not within financial reach of most. And, like someone above pointed out, if you feel the pressure to buy the certain knockoff on shein or wherever, and it takes hours and hours and hours to achieve that look, there is something wrong as well.

Our frum communities have decided that 100% of us are in the top 10% of earners, while I would imagine that reality is not quite that way. And this is a problem.

↑ DVOM ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 12:49 pm

amother [ Wandflower ] wrote:

The problem here is that you assume that your conclusion is true, and then argue from there. Its a logical fallacy.

You never establish that people who purchase designer or other high end goods do so to be part of a group, or because they want to be cool, or whatever shallow meaning you attribute to them. That's your rather benighted opinion.

When I purchase a designer or high end item, its because I want the item, and believe that its appearance, design, or durability is superior to other goods.

I weigh environmental impacts.

If I'm purchasing something that is likely to be quickly stained or out of style, or that I will only have reason to wear infrequently, I purchase low end. But for more classic or heavily used items, I prefer quality. I have blouses that are older than many posters here, and purses that are probably as old as their mothers (my oldest, I believe, was purchased in the late 1980s). They're all still in use. Not in a landfill. My husband, similarly, wears his clothes until they are stained or torn, which is usually several years, rather than replacing them annually because he purchased cheap goods.

What you have expressed is its own form of snobbery, attacking the motives and midos of people who choose to spend their money differently than you.

All true. As I pointed out, Wandflower, judging others to be shallow for purchasing designer stuff is its own form of snobbery and one I need to be careful of.

Still:

I do believe that many people buying designer stuff are doing so because they feel they have to in order to belong, in order to fit, not because they genuinely like the stuff they're buying, can afford it, and believe it to be an objectively more superior purchase. In my line of work, I often converse with people who discuss the incredible pressure they are under, or the incredible pressure their children or parents put them under, to dress just so, to have the right things. This doesn't seem to apply to you. Good for you! Enjoy your designer stuff in good health and happiness! But I do think it applies to many.

↑ DVOM ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 12:55 pm

amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:

I think this is very well said, but I’m curious where I’d fall. I like nice expensive things, but I hate having what everyone else has. So when I decided to splurge on expensive baby gear, I refused to get a bugaboo and a doona. What club do I fall into with my $1000 stroller that no one I know has? Can I like nice things for myself without trying to have other people notice?

Why not?

↑ DVOM ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 1:25 pm

Lovable wrote:

Again, you are right. I was not on those threads at all, the title itself totally put me off. And no, I dont wear lace fronts or tops, or anything close to that. But I do believe - strongly believe - in respecting everyone, and I mean everyone. We are all human and sometimes make mistakes & judge others. But to make a whole long thread of judging and mocking others - be it because of their designer cloths, doona or lace front - is totally out of boundaries

My aim was not to mock others.

I wanted to make two points:

Judging people by their externals is normal. In fact, we tailor our externals specifically to guide people in how we want them to categorize us. We use our clothing, our stuff, to signal our belonging. Not always. Not all the time. But often. So carefully choosing how we present ourselves in order to signal a certain culture, or community belonging, or value system, and then saying, hey, don't judge me! is kind of silly, kind of unfair. A heavily tattoed dude in a leather jacket and big bling is signaling a certain sort of belonging. So is a rumpled tweed jacket, sockless loafers, unkempt hair and wire-rim glasses. So is a loooong wig, a bugaboo, and designer clothes and shoes and kids. We do it very purposefully. If you don't like the assumptions that others make about you based on the costume you wear, change your costume. Yes, in an ideal world we'd all be getting to know each other on a deep and intimate level before creating views about each other. And as Jews, we have an obligation to get past the externals, to see the tzelem elokim underneath. But judging is human.

Regarding respect: I don't respect bowing to peer pressure. I don't respect conspicuous consumption. I'm troubled by the pressures that this creates in my community. Still, I can respect a person and not find these particular actions respectable. It is very true to point out that I have no way of knowing if a particular consumer of designer goods is buying those things because they genuinely love them, or because they just want to fit in. Also true that I would have no way of knowing whether their stuff are things they can easily afford, or whether or not they are struggling and straining to afford them. Frankly, none of my business. Hence the danger in makings snap judgments.

amother

↑ Vanilla ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 1:29 pm

The problem in our communities is that everyone must have the same regardless of income level. People are living off every government program yet live on high standards. The poor want to live a rich lifestyle and even go into debt to achieve that. It's embarrassing to be your own person and make our choices based on what's best for us instead of what others will think about us. We've forgotten how to live for ourselves. It's embarrassing to be different and it takes guts and confidence to do things your own way. It's not a problem to spend on luxuries you can easily afford. It is a problem when these luxuries become community standard that everyone must have. When there's almost no differentiation in a community between the rich, middle class, & poor, than we know there's a problem. It doesn't make sense that most people in a community are in the same financial bracket. People need to learn to live within their means without being so consumed about what others think about them.

↑ Lovable ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 1:31 pm

DVOM wrote:

Whatever. I am not obligated to agree, and I dont.
Judging people and disrespecting people for whatever reason is never ok. Deep down we all know that well.

amother

↑ Vanilla ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 1:34 pm

Lovable wrote:

Whatever. I am not obligated to agree, and I dont.
Judging people and disrespecting people for whatever reason is never ok. Deep down we all know that well.

And deep down I think we all know that there's a problem in our communities and we need to start to acknowledge it instead of denying it and calling others jealous. The first step to change is to acknowledge that there's a problem.

↑ keym ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 1:34 pm

amother [ Vanilla ] wrote:

The problem in our communities is that everyone must have the same regardless of income level. People are living off every government program yet live on high standards. The poor want to live a rich lifestyle and even go into debt to achieve that. It's embarrassing to be your own person and make our choices based on what's best for us instead of what others will think about us. We've forgot how to live for ourselves. It's embarrassing to be different and it takes guts and confidence to do things your own way. It's not a problem to spend on luxuries you can easily afford. It is a problem when these luxuries become community standard that everyone must have. When there's almost no differentiation in a community between the rich, middle class, & poor, than we know there's a problem. It doesn't make sense that most people in a community are in the same financial bracket. People need to learn to live within their means without being so consumed about what others think about them.

This is a particular problem in our community.
Public school is grouped by district, so you have less "children from slums" in the same class as "children of 1 %ers".
Our community is much more "inclusive" in that aspect.
The poorest family in the city can have a child in the same class as the richest.

amother

↑ Vanilla ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 1:38 pm

keym wrote:

So what's wrong with that? Why can't everyone live within their means? Why can't their be girls in a class from all different types of income brackets and everyone living within their means? Why can't we acknowledge that there are rich, poor, and everything in between in one community and live together each on their own standards?

↑ keym ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 1:44 pm

amother [ Vanilla ] wrote:

I can acknowledge it.

That doesn't mean it's easy to have your bar mitzvah the same Shabbos as "son of McRichy" and know that your classmates are going to show up to his Kiddush and not come to yours because he's having meatboards, herring, cholent, hot appetizers, and you're having cake.

Or to be the girl who suffers socially and desperately wants to go to camp with her friends, but she's stuck babysitting her siblings that summer, all alone or lonely.

Or being the 3 year old who brings wafers and lollies in his birthday pekela to be told by a kid in the class "these are stupid. Yesterday Moishy brought sour something and prizes and fancy cupcakes.

↑ DVOM ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 1:50 pm

Lovable wrote:

Whatever. I am not obligated to agree, and I don't.
Judging people and disrespecting people for whatever reason is never ok. Deep down we all know that well.

You're certainly not obligated to agree. You're not even obligated to respond! This conversation is entirely voluntary. Whatever!!!

I'm not saying that judging people is 'ok'. I'm saying that it is human, natural, instinctive. I'm saying that we all use it. Can you really say you never make judgments based on appearances? Can you really say that you never use your appearance to influence the judgments you know others will make about you? We form judgments all day long. We purposely pick and choose what we show others about ourselves in order to influence what beliefs they will form about us. This is a fact of life. I believe that you ignore this fact at your own risk. Still, I agree that as Jews we have a responsibility to rise above instict, to try to judge others favorably. I certainly don't claim to be perfect in this area. Are you?

Regarding disrespect 'for whatever reason': Is there no behavior that you don't respect? Are there no actions you find reprehensible? Do you respect acting based on peer pressure? What do you find respectable about it? Or do you simply believe that it doesn't exist? That everyone buying a bugaboo, even those who can't afford it, are making those purchases out of a genuine love for the product?